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Melantho198
01-22-2013, 06:36 PM
Later this year I'll be selling my Lapworth cruiser and buying something a bit newer. I'm on the east coast, so the singlehanded racing scene is a bit slim. But I'd still like to get something that I can race singlehanded if I get a hair to do so. Initially I've been hankering for something like a Beneteau 33.7 or similar, but I'm slightly concerned about the bugaboo that has come up the last couple of years: Stability entry requirements.

One by one each of the major ocean races (Chi-Mac, Newport-Bermuda, Pac Cup) are starting to invoke either Cat 1 or Cat 2 stability requirements. SSS Transpac hasn't done it....yet. If I want to enter a Cat 1, then it must meet a ORR Stix of 115. My conundrum is: all the newer boats with wide back ends less than 36 ft. don't meet the 115 requirement.

So I'd like to know what the folks on the forum think about the stability issue. Will SSS require minimum stability in the future? What happens if it's 115 where many of the smaller sleds won't fit? In my investigation, most that would work are (ugh!) IOR influenced designs. What designs should I look at that are 32 - 35 ft. and have some furniture?

Let the thoughts flow free.

Jack

ronnie simpson
01-22-2013, 07:32 PM
not super relevant to your question, but my old Mount Gay 30 that traveled across 760 miles of open ocean with no keel doesn't even meet the STIX requirement...... Boat is not legal for OSTAR because of that. I think J105's are one of the relatively modern boats that comply. They're also relatively common as solo boats and should be fairly easy to singlehand. one of our local SSS guys has a J92 that he does quite well with.

BobJ
01-22-2013, 07:41 PM
As our friend Slacker pointed out on another forum, the Olson 30 has a stability index of 100, below the threshold even for Cat 3 as I recall. Yet the Olson 30 is the most popular and successful boat in the Singlehanded TransPac over many years. The J/105 is a favorite OD on San Francisco Bay because of its stiffness, yet it barely meets Cat 2.

The problem is the calculation and use of these stability indexes. Boats from the same class have been measured with wildly differing results. Because of this, I will fight tooth and nail to keep STIX requirements out of our race rules around here. Are you sure Pacific Cup requires them?

Here's part of one of my posts elsewhere about this:

"LPS (limit of positive stability) for the J/92 varies depending where you look. Here in the US, ORR shows a STIX (not LPS) for the J/105 at 112 and for the J/92 and J/92S of about 110, so they're close. Neither the J/92 or J/105 (nor a bunch of other boats with ocean racing pedigrees) meet the cutoff of 115 for the LA TransPac, but Vic-Maui cuts off at 110 I think. No other West Coast races use a stability factor, to my knowledge. Chicago-Mac uses one in response to the WingNuts casualty but its use has eliminated some long-time participants so it has already been modified.

There were two long threads on Sailing Anarchy about all this, where a couple of designers pointed out the inconsistencies in most of these indicies. You need to do inversion tests like the Minis and Open classes require - the calculated stability numbers are pretty bogus. In my observation, excess beam and cockpit layout have a lot to do with a boat's ability to right itself, yet it seems most focus on B/D and draft."

If you want to compare some largely bogus numbers, go here, sort by Class and then scroll to the right hand columns:

http://offshore.ussailing.org/ORR/ORR_Scratch_Sheets/ORR_Windward_Leeward_50_50.htm

pogen
01-23-2013, 04:55 PM
In PacCup, if you race PHRF there is no stability requirement. If you are Div F (fast), they race under ORR, which I think has stability minimums. I think Newport-Bermuda is entirely ORR, and some boats need to be modified (e.g. adding weight to bottom of keel) to meet some minimum.

For our diverse, aged fleet, everything would have to be physically measured for it to be fair or make sense. Many of the numbers on many PHRF certs are erroneous.

Interesting link there Bob -- for the Olson 40s the spread in stability index is from 119.4 to 138.7. Probably arising from using numbers from a sales brochure or some such, vs. weighed with all crap on board.

The Tartan 10 fleet has their shit together, though, every single one of them right on the money at 128.3.

Ragnar
01-24-2013, 12:12 AM
Yes, BobJ and I are in violent agreement on this issue. STIX is bullshit. The 115 level is basically arbitrary. The measurement is dubious, not taking deck & rig into consideration. The measurements are pretty wildly inconsistent. It's a static measurement to a highly dynamic problem, the likelihood of a wave capsizing your boat. There is no consideration for rolling inertia & the energy required to roll the boat. A T10 can race to Bermuda but a heavy cruiser with shoal draft cannot? Please. Olson 30's, Moore 24s, Mini's (i think) don't meet the standard.

BobJ
01-24-2013, 09:45 AM
The minimum of 115 (or ISO Cat A) in the LA TransPac is there for one reason and it has nothing to do with stability. It's to keep anything competitive and under 35' out of the race. Look at the entry list.

That's fine if that's what they want - I just wish they'd be honest about it.

ronnie simpson
01-24-2013, 04:58 PM
is that a new requirement? a Hobie 33 was in our class in 2011 when i was on the 1d35. what does the hobie rate for stability?

BobJ
01-24-2013, 05:14 PM
According to that ORR chart, somewhere between 115 and 119. That Hobie just squeaked by.

35' is not the rule but my point is that most competitive yet ocean-capable 35 footers wouldn't qualify for the race. e.g. you have a J/35? Sorry, not stable enough.

Melantho198
01-28-2013, 06:16 PM
Thanks for the responses. I'll chime in again.

The Hobie passes because it's skinny. Give it 1 more foot of beam and it would fail.

I understand it is a field of competing problems: organizing authorities need to cover their a#$$# and to a certain extent, protect us from ourselves (whadoyamean I can't race my Laser in the Chi-Mac?), and competitors want to show up in their Laser...okay I exaggerate for effect. But I'm the first to admit that I would like to cover my a#$$# as well. This whole topic has me rethinking stability. For example, one boat I kinda like is the Beneteau First 35.7 (35s7). It has a stability number around 100. Now if I get caught in a good blow, 25-35 kn with 15-18 ft. seas, and I'm surfing down a good greybeard and at the bottom the autopilot decides to pack up. As I hang on during the wipe-out I'm pretty sure I'd be thinking that a boat with a stability number around 120 would be better at that moment. It might not be as fast or sexy or collect the same amount of silver...

No, I'm not planning on getting an Luders 33, if that's what your thinking...

Another choice is to get a boat that's close and bolt an extra 300 lbs. of lead to the bottom, like some have done to their Beneteau 36.7s, but I think that's playing with a bit of engineering fire.

JimQuanci
08-27-2013, 03:04 PM
PacCup positive stability requirement is 105 degrees... not as tough as LA Transpac. Though some common race boats still don't meet the 105 degree requirement... like a Santana 35 (wide boat with a relatively short modest weight keel). Took a Hobie to Hawaii one year... yes due to being so narrow and so light, they are initially very tippy (light shallow keel), but when heeled way over, they still prefer to float upright (narrow hull).

pogen
08-27-2013, 04:34 PM
PacCup positive stability requirement is 105 degrees... not as tough as LA Transpac. Though some common race boats still don't meet the 105 degree requirement... like a Santana 35 (wide boat with a relatively short modest weight keel). Took a Hobie to Hawaii one year... yes due to being so narrow and so light, they are initially very tippy (light shallow keel), but when heeled way over, they still prefer to float upright (narrow hull).

What's this I hear about some new measurement rating being required for Pac Cup? I looked on the Pac Cup website but could not find it -- just a mention in the NOR about a rating rule "to be published in an appendix at a later date" or some such.

BobJ
08-27-2013, 06:10 PM
Way too many cooks in the kitchen over at PacCup. They'll end up with a cruising rally and we'll have to add a DH division to our race. (Did I really say that?)

First the DW ratings (new PCR) which took some of our boats right out of it. Then the cruising division, then weighing all the boats (yes!) and now a bogus stability rating that eliminates boats like the venerable Hawaii sled, the Olson 30.

knotbum
08-28-2013, 10:56 AM
How much (for the lack of a better term) "idiot proofing" does it take to diminish the event. The races already require radios up the ying yang, life rafts, and other survival equipment. How many people just don't compete because of the extensive overhead already required? If it's insurance companies then lets see if they will compete on requirements. If it's liability, then form a new corporate organization for each race and let the scavengers sue ghosts. If somewhere in the middle is required then I would favor more competency evaluation and less idiot proofing. Less problems with more competency anyway because idiot proofing is just an illusion.

pogen
08-28-2013, 11:20 AM
Weighing all the boats?? WTF?

I can see getting everyone to get a 'real' cert like an ORR, but to do things in a half-assed manner is worse than nothing at all.

The DW rating was a complete flop, and I'm afraid that some of the people behind it are now tinkering with Pac Cup. One in particular is too clever by half, or perhaps too clever for our own good.


Though if you used the actual weight of my boat (probably 1500 lbs more than the PHRF cert says it is) and the PHRF LWL (quite a bit shorter than it really is) I would come out well ahead.

And stability? Do they honestly think anyone is going to flip over? Has that EVER happened????

JAMcDonald
08-28-2013, 11:49 AM
Way too many cooks in the kitchen over at PacCup. They'll end up with a cruising rally and we'll have to add a DH division to our race. (Did I really say that?)

First the DW ratings (new PCR) which took some of our boats right out of it. Then the cruising division, then weighing all the boats (yes!) and now a bogus stability rating that eliminates boats like the venerable Hawaii sled, the Olson 30.

Bob, I think this is a great idea, frankly. I'm only doing the Pac Cup because at 70 I don't feel completely comfortable doing the trip singlehanded in a Moore 24 and the Long Pac doesn't give you the down wind experience. I'll probably sail a singlehanded qualifier anyway just in case my crew has to withdraw prior to the Pac Cup. Pogo

BobJ
08-28-2013, 12:02 PM
I suspect other folks around SSS would like to see a DH division in the SHTP. But then it wouldn't be the SHTP, we couldn't finish in Hanalei Bay because skippers and crew would want docks and other facilities, and on it goes until you have another PacCup.

This has come up several times regarding the SH Farallones and we have sent skippers over to BAMA's race. We are the Singlehanded Sailing Society.

tiger beetle
08-28-2013, 03:27 PM
I've had an email back from Jim Antrim regarding how to figure out the Limit of Positive Stability for Beetle, and essentially I would need to measure in for an ORR certificate. That's an expensive and time consuming bit of work to generate all the numbers.

The results would have a value to me personally, it's fun to know more about the boat.

That said, there's little chance I would spend the amount needed to measure in for an ORR certificate; the last time I looked into doing this as part of a group of people to measure 5 boats in one weekend the costs were running $2000+ per boat to set it up. The biggest issue with ORR, from my perspective, if you change the boat in some way then you're certificate is out of compliance and you must rerate the boat, and that gets expensive (again).

I see no need for the SSS to go that route, just keep bringing what you own to the start line.

- rob/beetle

BobJ
08-28-2013, 03:40 PM
I can't remember where I read it (Latitude 38 or 'Lectronic Latitude?) but I read that all Pacific Cup entries would need to be weighed, those entering either the ORR or PHRF divisions. When I talked with him at Pacific Sail Expo last April, Paul Kamen said he was pushing for this. In fact, Paul wants to see all NorCal PHRF boats weighed, even for the local stuff (that includes us).

If you're thinking about the 2014 Pacific Cup and are scheduling your Fall haul-out, you might want to ask about this or you'll be facing a second haul-out to be weighed. Those in the know at Pacific Cup YC are invited to post here.

Long live the SHTP!

brianb
08-28-2013, 06:26 PM
I have heard these rumors as well . Apparently there is, or was, a debate within the Committee and from what I heard a month ago the majority opinion was only require advanced measurements for ORR entrants. The fear being the added costs would scare off customers. Note the Pac Cup has nearly a full set of entrants.

pogen
08-29-2013, 09:00 AM
Unfortunately, all these rumors are just that -- there is no mention in the PacCup NOR of any of this. Pretty disappointing.

And just weighing you boat won't be worth much unless you pull all the gear out, empty tanks, and have the appropriate witnesses etc or whatever ORR requires.

Edit: IMHO, NorCal PHRF might be better served to just give up on PHRF and make everyone go to ORR. Why subject everyone to much of the expense of getting semi-measured, and then go through some flaky semi-application of bad data, tempered by all the out of variance ratings grandfathered in from the past?

BobJ
08-29-2013, 09:31 AM
ORR is allegedly what the Downwind ratings are based on. Plus ORR is supposed to be adjusted for the conditions, to be effective.

Are you sure you want to go there?

pogen
08-29-2013, 09:52 AM
ORR is allegedly what the Downwind ratings are based on. Plus ORR is supposed to be adjusted for the conditions, to be effective.

Are you sure you want to go there?


Downwind Ratings were cooked up with no verification of cert data, which is often crap. So, GIGO.

brianb
08-29-2013, 11:05 PM
I wish Pac Cup would make up their minds. I want to make a decision and need to know the cost of getting an ORR rating. My guess is somewhere around $1500, anyone have experience with this ?

brianb
08-30-2013, 09:50 AM
I read the minutes of the Aug 19 PacCup meeting. They are requiring certified PHRF, which will require a water line and displacement measurement. THis is also the requirement of the Nor Cal PHRF going forward. They are arranging group measurement days at a cost of $200 per boat, which sound pretty reasonable compared to what some acquaintances have experienced in the past. I wonder if this holds for larger vessels (like Tiger Beetle ? ). As PacCup usually does they are following NorCal PHRF so they mostly stay out of the rating business.

Here is the wording from the NorCal site:

Why you might want a CPHRF certificate:
In 2014, the Pacific Cup will require a CPHRF certificate for all boats who wish to compete for the overall Pacific Cup trophy. Possibly in the future other downwind races will start to require CPHRF certificates.

How to get a CPHRF certificate:
If you have a valid* ORR or IRC certificate, submit a copy of those certificates with your application requesting a CPHRF. No other action or fee is required. All the information needed is on those certificates. (*"valid" means a current certificate that accurately represents the configuration you will sail under in PHRF.)

If you do not have a valid ORR or IRC certificate, you must have your boat weighed and hull profile measured by a licensed US Sailing measurer. The measurer must measure IRC profile data and will weigh the boat in IRC measurement configuration. IRC configuration is essentially empty all sails and loose gear removed. Please read and prepare your boat following the CPHRF Owner Measurement Preparation Guide.

The Pacific Cup will arrange a few specific dates where groups of boats can be measured together, thus significantly reducing cost. These group measurements will be conducted by measurer Dick Horn at Berkeley Marine Center, and are expected to cost $200/boat. A boat that measures solo can expect a normal haul out rate and Dick Horn's hourly rate.

ORR displacements are typically 1-2% higher than IRC because more gear is allowed on board for ORR measurement. The PHRF board will consider the data source and adjust displacement to suit in calculating downwind ratings.



NCPHRF Quick Links

Electronic Application
Printable NCPHRF Application
NCPHRF Rules & Guidelines
NCPHRF Ratings
NCPHRF Rating Appeal Form

pogen
08-30-2013, 10:06 AM
Here is the link to NorCal PHRF: http://www.yra.org/PHRF/ncphrf_certifiedratings.html


I guess they mean to tinker with base ratings using a bit better data. But frankly, I am not sure that the overall system, which is much more 'historical' than 'empirical' will be much improved, as there are some notorious examples of base ratings that are completely out of whack, and that the NCPHRF has not addressed in spite of decades worth of data.

BobJ
08-30-2013, 10:34 AM
Upon careful reading of your link, it sounds like the whole agenda is to try to save the Downwind ratings. "We're sure your boat is heavier than you told us, so you won't mind."

So once a year we make our pilgrimage to Berkeley Marine Center, pay our $200 and have our boat weighed? Then we can get a PHRF certificate? Good luck with that - we have a fair bit of trouble rounding up current certificates from some of you now.

I'm sorry, but this is a complete misunderstanding of what PHRF is and who it's intended for. Clubs will just start using their own ratings (like many do now for beer can racing) and YRA will lose its largest revenue source. It seems to me that PacCupYC is trying to offload its DW rating popularity problem onto NorCal PHRF, and YRA will pay the price.

Perhaps someone in an official capacity* will respond to this thread, and to us as NorCal PHRF's largest (and growing) constituency. How many PHRF certs get issued in January for the Three Bridge Fiasco? (LOTS)

* I am not posting as a representative of the SSS board. However, since participation in our races would suffer if we continued to require current certificates and the boats had to be weighed, I would bring this up to the board.

brianb
08-30-2013, 10:48 AM
The Pac Cup Commodore just called me. Here is their plan:

CPHRF is only required for entrants interested in the overall trophy, so no need to do the measurement.

However, the YRA implies/states CPHRF is required for YRA racing in the future, however they point back at Pac Cup for measurement plans ? If that is true than i essence Pac Cup is requiring 100% weigh in since it is required for YRA PHRF, unless Pac Cup is allowing 2013 certs ?
I have a call to YRA for clarity. I suspect this might be a bit squishy.

In any case it looks like we should all budget weigh ins every so often, at least sometime in the near future.

If YRA requires it than it is also a requirement for SSS racing as Nor Cal PHRF is a requirement, right ?

Brian

pogen
08-30-2013, 10:50 AM
As Comrade Lenin so aptly put it: "Who, Whom?"

What is driving this? Who is being served here? Does this address any of the factors that are causing the decline in participation?

brianb
08-30-2013, 10:56 AM
I just re read the Nor Cal YRA posting. I missed a key point, they are not stating this is a general requirement but that more events are starting to require the measurement and are suggesting it. As you said, they seem to be preserving the downwind rating. I actually agree that a measurement is the right thing to do in order to have accuracy, but it requires substantial cost which I don't like. I wonder about the annual requirement ? I know in one design racing I did in two classes we had annual weigh ins (and in one case spot weigh ins at some regatta's).

I guess we are in for more and more continual escalating costs what with PHRF & technology requirements. I think I will just go to CLipper Cove and hang out to talk about the sailing I used to do.

Philpott
08-30-2013, 11:12 AM
and we'll have to add a DH division to our race.

wash your mouth out with soap. Even if I never sail a singlehanded transpac, I want to know there are sailors out there doing it. As a tribe.

BobJ
08-30-2013, 11:18 AM
That took a lot longer than I expected.

pogen
08-30-2013, 11:23 AM
Clubs will just start using their own ratings [...] - and NorCal PHRF's largest (and growing) constituency. How many PHRF certs get issued in January for the Three Bridge Fiasco? (LOTS)


A straight-line extrapolation of race participation would indicate that the SSS will be the only organization running series races in the bay in about 15 years. Then you will be holding the stick! ;)

BobJ
08-30-2013, 11:33 AM
I don't like to think that way.

Besides, by then I'll be rafted up next to Brian (and a bunch of others) in Clipper Cove. We'll set up a rabbit start and race back to RYC or something. This is ALWAYS an option, and the powers-that-be need to understand that.

(Sounds kinda fun actually.)

pogen
08-30-2013, 11:38 AM
Is a rabbit start like a Le Mans start? I heard a story that the Folkboats used to start in a bar. At the gun, you had to finish a beer and then run with your jib under your arm down to the dock, bend on the jib and push off.

BobJ
08-30-2013, 11:43 AM
What you described is a variant on a LeMans start. The possibilities are endless (and great fun).

For a rabbit start, one boat (the "rabbit") sails close-hauled on port tack (I think), and all the other boats (on starboard) have to pass behind the rabbit to start. Then the rabbit tacks onto starboard and you're off to the races. The So-Cal shorthanders group starts most of their races this way (right Slack?). No marks, no race deck, in fact, no R/C.

pogen
08-30-2013, 12:49 PM
I read the minutes of the Aug 19 PacCup meeting (https://pacificcup.org/aug-2013/board-meeting/meeting-minutes). They are requiring certified PHRF,

OK, now I am starting to get it. We are looking at this bottom up; they have a top-down problem of giving an overall trophy to a fleet that are using two completely different ratings systems.

From the point of view of an ORR high-ender, PHRF is hokey, subjective bullshit, and they don't want to loose the overall Pac Cup trophy to a PHRF boat with a sweetheart rating. So, PacCup will ignore the ORR ratings for the consideration of the overall trophy, and use these C-PHRF ratings to calculate the overall fleet ranking, while still using the ORR ratings for scoring within the individual fast-boat divisions. Though now they are left with as many as three different rating systems....

Question: In a Division with a mix of C-PHRF and straight PHRF (if they allow people to opt out of getting the C-) , how do they score?

However, this is not at all the problem faced by any other local race organizer that I am aware of, none of whom run mixed-system races.

Is PacCup unduly influencing NorCalPHRF to make this change, or is it the other way 'round?

And, given the lack of success that the DW-PHRF has enjoyed, mightn't the committee consult a bit more with various stakeholders before mandating this change?

brianb
08-30-2013, 01:23 PM
The LA Single Handers do almost all their starts using the rabbit approach. Having done it many times in small fleets it really works fairly well, though often the rabbit ends up with a distinct advantage.

We used to do LeMans starts in long distance Hobie races. It is fun, but often the winner was the guy who moved his boat to the most upwind position on the beach. (See this talking about the sailing i used to do is already kicking in, Clipper Cove here I come).

brianb
08-30-2013, 01:31 PM
I think Pac CUp is trying to take a path that attracts the big name race boats and raise the world's attention regarding the Pac Cup. This leads them to a system that the big guys are comfortable with.

Ragnar
08-30-2013, 09:14 PM
Rabbit starts are elegant. A 10 minute dance is performed, then everyone is off and racing and something was just created from nothing.

One race 2 years ago someone offered a Committee Boat for one of our starts. Race day came with 10 foot seas, so the Committee Boat turned tail for the barn. The Rabbit attempted the start, but it was so rough, the call went out to the fleet to: "just sail within 100 yards of the mark after 11:00am." And we were off and racing.

Harrier
08-31-2013, 10:48 AM
So: Is the SSS Race committee for the 2014 SHTP aiming to change the handicap system we have been using for some time...since 1992, I think.???
Not that I'm interested in anything but a hypothetical way.....

BobJ
09-02-2013, 04:08 PM
I asked that question awhile back and I was told they do not plan to change it. Also, the drafts of the NOR and RR&C's have the same formulas as last time.

So I think you're good to go . . . hypothetically. You'll have to remind them about your rounding issue at the appropriate time (should theory become practice).

AlanH
09-30-2013, 08:37 PM
It appears that a lot of (*#$_)@#( has come down in the Nor Cal PHRF world, in fact, racing in general, since I kind of stopped in 2008.

Now I have to go get my boat weighed, as well, in order to get a PHRF certificate? This "weighing" activity will cost around $200? And if I change out my batteries or some damn thing, I'll have to do it AGAIN? It used to cost $75 for a certificate, I'm sure that's been pumped up to well over $100 by now. I think that maybe we're all being $200-to-death, here. Two hundred here, two hundred there, two hundred for another radio beacon, two hundred for another safety item, it's just two hundred dollars, no big deal, right? Except that sooner or later it adds up to real money. Somebody said that once, before, right? I dunno, do I WANT to get back into this?

BTW, not that I have any say in it, but I REVOLT at the notion of having a "doublehanded division" in the SHTP. I might actually show up at a meeting and shout myself blue in the face, should that obscene idea get any credence, whatsoever.

BobJ
09-30-2013, 09:13 PM
A lot of that was in the context of the 2014 Pacific Cup.

You only need to have your boat weighed if you want a "certified" PHRF certificate, and the only place you currently need a certified PHRF certificate is in the Pacific Cup IF you want to compete for the overall win on corrected time (the Pacific Cup itself). I think Dave King's overall win with his Westsail 32 is still stuck in their collective craw.

I think a regular PHRF certificate is still $40. No one else plans to require certified PHRF certificates that I've heard about, and certainly not the SSS.

We agree on no DH'ers in the Singlehanded TransPac - that was written in reaction to some of the Pacific Cup craziness.

AlanH
10-01-2013, 11:54 AM
A lot of that was in the context of the 2014 Pacific Cup.

You only need to have your boat weighed if you want a "certified" PHRF certificate, and the only place you currently need a certified PHRF certificate is in the Pacific Cup IF you want to compete for the overall win on corrected time (the Pacific Cup itself). I think Dave King's overall win with his Westsail 32 is still stuck in their collective craw.

I think a regular PHRF certificate is still $40. No one else plans to require certified PHRF certificates that I've heard about, and certainly not the SSS.

We agree on no DH'ers in the Singlehanded TransPac - that was written in reaction to some of the Pacific Cup craziness.

OK, well this is encouraging, at least!

Melantho198
10-11-2013, 08:39 AM
Being on the right coast I don't have a dog in this PacCup fight, but the discussion about ratings has been interesting (isn't always? okay, maybe not). On the topic about the cost of weighing, ORR certs don't require a hoist with a load cell if they already have the hull lines -- either from a previous measurement of your boat or a sister boat. A measurer would just measure the freeboard (very carefully of course) to determine the displacement. That's a lot cheaper than the complete haul-out. Now if the hull lines aren't available, you just find the richest guy that owns a sister boat and convince them to do the full laser measurement routine, or something like that.

I think PHRF has been terrible ever since they let J/24s in. Rating systems should either be by measurement (CCA, IOR, IMS, ORR, IRC, pick yer poison) or a Portsmouth system. Anything else is just hooey.