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jimb522
07-24-2013, 04:22 PM
Hi All,
I have been trying to get a boat to the starting line since the 2008 SHTP, without success. I am now finishing, and have actually raced in a couple of casual races, a 36 foot Trimaran, that is tiller steered, and somewhat performance oriented, although by no means as competitive as any of the Corsairs. It will displace about 6500 to 7000, although I am weighing it in two weeks when I get a bottom job, and may be sorely disappointed at how heavy it is. If I can get it debugged, and get a long qualifying voyage in, in which I don't scare the crap out of myself, and my law partner agrees not to sue me for leaving him for two months, and, and, and, I might be able to do it.
I rate about like the F24 (PHRF 84) here in the Gulf Yachting Association. A windvane is not likely to be able to react quickly enough to steer this boat, and that leaves me with the electric autopilot option. I installed a Ralytheon SPX5 Tiller pilot, and it burned up and quit in its first 5 hours of choppy water. The boat can have a hard helm in a hurry, when on a wave, and I am modifying the rudder to try to help relieve helm pressure. In any case, I think I need a much stronger below deck drive. Raytheon service techs recommended the EV200 Linear Pack. That autopilot uses the same drive that's been around for years. It is roughly $3300, and I have not seen anything much better then that. Still only half an NKE price though. Before I spring for that, does anyone have any opinions, backed by some experience or personal observation, as to any other options that might work on a relatively quick downwind boat? Thanks for your imput.
Jim Bates

brianb
07-24-2013, 05:28 PM
Do you have any specifics on the rudder load when you are holding the tiller ? Some measurement of this load , or guess and under what kind of conditions ? It sounds to me that you are going to want to go to a hydraulic drive or a very powerful motor drive unit. I believe the later, powerful drives, are available from Jeffa and possibly Alpha. You don't have to use their AP with their drive, nor do you have to use the RM brains with the RM drives. For example, your SPX5 can drive a type 1 hydraulic pump, or with a bit of engineering a type 2. The hydraulics are so powerful and forgiving to shock loads, hence you see it used on so much of the heavy machinery out there. It is less efficient , draws more power per ft lb of output, electrically when compared to an efficient electric drive design. Consider separating your brain's choice from the drive choice. I have used the RM recent brain's and they do a good job of trying to put the boat in the right place given sea state. Their success, like all AP's, depends on the drive's abilities. NKE and BG are true champions for sure, but again no better than the drive.

Good luck with the set up.

Brian

jimb522
07-25-2013, 08:27 AM
Do you have any specifics on the rudder load when you are holding the tiller ? Some measurement of this load , or guess and under what kind of conditions ? It sounds to me that you are going to want to go to a hydraulic drive or a very powerful motor drive unit. I believe the later, powerful drives, are available from Jeffa and possibly Alpha. You don't have to use their AP with their drive, nor do you have to use the RM brains with the RM drives. For example, your SPX5 can drive a type 1 hydraulic pump, or with a bit of engineering a type 2. The hydraulics are so powerful and forgiving to shock loads, hence you see it used on so much of the heavy machinery out there. It is less efficient , draws more power per ft lb of output, electrically when compared to an efficient electric drive design. Consider separating your brain's choice from the drive choice. I have used the RM recent brain's and they do a good job of trying to put the boat in the right place given sea state. Their success, like all AP's, depends on the drive's abilities. NKE and BG are true champions for sure, but again no better than the drive.

Good luck with the set up.

Brian

Brian,
As I understand what you are saying, I can disconnect the tiller drive, and route those two wires to a hydraulic pump attached to a below decks tiller, but at the cost of more electrical draw?
I did ask the Raymarine tech support if their linear drive could be driven off the SPX5 computer and sensor and fluxgate sensor, and he said absolutely not, and that it would only work with the tiller. I cant think of a reason that it wouldn't work, since the two tiller rams wires simply make it go left or right, as you would presume a hydraulic pilot would. But then my electrical expertise is not very high, so what do I know? It would seem that the risk (purchase of drive expense and installation) would be kind of high unless someone had successfully make this combination. but thanks for the info.
Jim

brianb
07-25-2013, 10:30 AM
Jim,

Yes. Here is a video of a system I put on my boat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t--EiL2Q60 This is an above deck hydraulic drive. I used non traditional components, for sail boats anyway, to enable a removable above deck solution that is plug compatible with the X5 linear electric drive. I carry the linear drive along as back up when I have the AP with me.

I completed several offshore events with this setup, including the 2012 SHTP. The hydraulics drove about 3000 miles of the solo loop down to Kauai and back. The RM linear stick covered about 1500 of the trip, finally packing it in on my approach to the Farralon's.

The X5 brain, lacks a "clutch" output, as I recall. If you are going below deck you need a way to disconnect the hydraulics, and that is the clutch function. You could add an above deck switch. If you choose to use something like the Alpha electric drive it has a mechanical, manual, clutch control so the clutch signal is not necessary. I choose to keep my solution above deck as I had a strong fear of finding myself in the stern, below deck, in a large seaway, unbolting a jammed hydraulic cylinder because someones AP controller went south, and it allows completely removing the drag of the hydraulics when hand steering. With my solution one simply raises the tiller an inch and the hydraulics are disconnected.

For the SHTP I made my own electronics. This started as a means to save $$'s on a redundant set of electronics. The silly thing worked well enough that it became my primary AP with the RM being the back up. This short video shows it steering in a good blow near Hunters point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrqSDrfuvHk&list=UU85HCAreLiiJvgPwvDqdWLQ Here is the advanced version of my AP brain steering an Express 27, getting set up for the SHTP 2014, across the slot (boat is Elise, no hands driver is Serge) : http: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWObyejTb3Ain a typical spring afternoon. In this case this AP is redundant to a top line NKE on board. Either AP can take control with the touch of a button. This is a type 1 hydraulic installation showing, that the mixing and matching of components is trivial.

In the RM line, in my opinion, the control algorithms are the same in any of the gyro enabled designs (pre 2013 products). The differences are the clutch and the drive power. When you move to the Type 2 drive peak currents can get up to about 15 amps so the RM boxes have larger drive components in the brain box, and of course they differentiate on price by a significant margin to gain the added power.

Too much detail ?

Brian

Rainbow
08-12-2013, 11:23 PM
Jim: The Alpha 3000 served Rainbow well on the 2012 SHTP. I completely lack Brian's technical ability so selected it based on being off-the-shelf resady, fastest advertised lock-to-lock speed, and very low power usage. It steered all the way to Hanalei Bay and back without any problem. Later, it started doing circles on the Bay and I had to send it back to the factory where they discovered the course setting mechanism was loose and was turning in it's mount when I turned the course knob -- easily fixed, but no explanation for why it came loose.

Cliff

WBChristie
08-13-2013, 07:12 PM
Has anyone on the forum tried one of the new generation Raymarine pilots like the Raymarine T70158 EV-200 Sail Linear Drive Evolution Autopilot? They are very spendy...wondering if its worth it.

JAMcDonald
08-14-2013, 02:38 PM
Has anyone on the forum tried one of the new generation Raymarine pilots like the Raymarine T70158 EV-200 Sail Linear Drive Evolution Autopilot? They are very spendy...wondering if its worth it.

No, but according to the RM online help forum they are apparently releasing the Evolution Autopilot for the X-5 tiller pilot in Sept, which will may improve steering but not durability of the ram nor the apparent inability of the RM wind instruments to drive the AP.

BobJ
08-14-2013, 04:09 PM
I'm not sure about that last part. I don't do it racing on the Bay but in the LongPac and both SHTP's, I put the X-5 in (wind) Vane mode and it steers to either apparent or true wind (whichever I choose). That's how I slept with the kite up.

You do need spare drive units (rams), treated with diver's silicone grease as advised by The General. Also spare plastic caps (the holes elongate) and as I found out in 2008, a second SS pin in the tiller in case the first one breaks. If that pin breaks, all the spares in the world do no good.

todd22123
08-14-2013, 08:14 PM
Bob-

For steering with true wind mode, how does your Raymarine autopilot get the GPS data? The apparent wind is on the Seatalk from the wind direction indicator if I remember correctly.

Thanks,
Todd

BobJ
08-14-2013, 10:03 PM
The wind instrument computes true wind speed and direction from the apparent wind input (from the wind transducer) and boat speed (from the speed transducer). GPS data is also on my Seatalk bus but the autopilot uses boat speed, not SOG for the true wind calculation.

It is not very accurate - my speed transducer is not on the centerline and reads about 4/10 different from one tack to the other, but for this purpose you just want it to steer to the shifts on one tack/gybe and it does that well enough. It cannot handle a squall however. I doubt even a high-end pilot could sail you through a squall in TW mode.

Harrier
08-15-2013, 07:49 AM
Re Bob's comment about needing spare ends for the Raymarine rams is good. However, I cured this problem by buying the RayMarine extension fitting (the shortest is enuf) and drilling a new hole in it (to mimic the position of the hole in the plastic end piece which comes with the ram). The extension fittings are aluminum and hold up well for me. I have also had an occasional problem with strippage of the plastic threads on the stock end cap. The aluminum extension cures that rare problem too.
Not having Brian's skill with electronics, I just go merrily along with what's available off the shelf. My sailing instruments are RayMarine and they integrate well with the TP4000 and TP4000GP. I often use the "wind mode" (apparent wind setting) on the SHTP. But that method becomes problematic in lite air...less than 5 knots or so apparent.

Mewes
08-15-2013, 08:35 AM
Good golly, is this you, Jim Bates? I've been looking for you since Ben and I chaired the TransPac in 2006!

Lucie Mewes

WBChristie
08-15-2013, 01:28 PM
Bob, do you know which evolution model replaces the X-5 GP? The EV-100 sensor seems to be a much better feedback instrument that the previous fluxgate compass for the X-5 series pilots. It also seems that the only difference between the X-5 and the X-5 GP is the ram. One is more robust than the other.

BobJ
08-15-2013, 06:29 PM
I don't know - I haven't looked at them yet. That's interesting about the sensor because I've had trouble with a couple of their fluxgates. I now have two installed and can switch between them if necessary. I assume it's still sensitive to sources of deviation? That's been a challenge on the smaller boats as we add gear.

Here's a presser: http://www.raymarine.com/news/mynews.cfm?story=7104

There's also an interesting comparison of the GP vs. non-GP drive motors in this thread, started by our own Slacker:

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=112693

Scroll down to post #20 for the details about the motor. Apparently the motor in the non-GP unit costs about four bucks and the motor in the GP costs $300!

WBChristie
08-15-2013, 08:26 PM
Thanks, great information there. Apparently the new sensor is not affected by on board magnetic fields.



At the centre of every Evolution system is the intelligent EV sensor core, a 9-axis sensor that monitors vessel motion in all three dimensions. The innovative EV sensor core combines advanced solid-state sensors with the Evolution autopilot processor into a single easy-to-install housing.

Mount the EV sensor core above or below decks, the rugged enclosure is fully sealed and built to IPX6 and IPX7 waterproofing and submersion standards.
EV Sensor Core Benefits

Precision monitoring of heading, pitch, roll, and yaw allowing the autopilot to evolve instantly as sea conditions and vessel dynamics change.
Flexible installation options. Mount above or below deck.
Simple SeaTalkng connectivity to the control head and ACU.
Solid state sensor technology delivers dynamic accuracy to within 2 degrees in all conditions.
Auto-compensation for on board magnetic fields and reliable heading accuracy in the northern and southern extremes.
Fast and reliable heading data for MARPA, radar overlay, and heading modes on Raymarine multifunction displays.

brianb
08-19-2013, 08:43 AM
The new sensor is implemented with 6 sensors, 3 magnetometers, and 3 accelerometers. These are used to fully characterize the magnetic field direction while compensating for pitch, yaw, and role of the boat as well as magnetic declination. The method used to compensate for on board fields is not unlike that used for the old sensor, that is several 360 degress turns are taken at set up to measure static, on board, interference. It will not account for changing fields, like those caused by electrical wiring. One downside to the new sensor approach is that the accelerometers are sensitive to vibration. One thing to be careful about is to try and locate the sensor module where engine vibration is minimized. One might notice an effect where under motoring the unit will wander a bit more than while the motor is off. Another rare failure is that the accelerometers, which use solid state micro machines, have been known to "latch up". They are implemented in silicon will micro oscillating pendulums (dimensions measured in nano meters) and on really rare occasions have become contaminated. You can find these same sensors in your new smartphone. If you have a compass application on your phone you can experience both the good and bad of this technique. Align the phone while level to north. Then try tilting and rolling the phone. You will see compass direction changes and also how long it takes for the compass to recover back to the true course. In the AP 3 more sensors, rate gyros, are added to help with these dynamics, but the experiment shows just how slow the compass is and the challenge the AP has in dealing with sea state. The older flux gate sensor does a good job and has similar response times. It is more expensive to produce however. The rate gyros, now on all three axis, allows RM to compensate steering for a wider variety of sea state. How well they use this new set of information in their algorithms is an experience left to the user.

WBChristie
08-19-2013, 10:25 AM
Brian, I Am interested in the hydraulic ram that you built yourself. In a previous post you mentioned that the RM control box can supply enough "power" to drive a hydraulic setup. Is the hydraulic drive control, for that matter the RM control box simply a "bang bang" output, not an analog output?

brianb
08-19-2013, 12:09 PM
Brian, I Am interested in the hydraulic ram that you built yourself. In a previous post you mentioned that the RM control box can supply enough "power" to drive a hydraulic setup. Is the hydraulic drive control, for that matter the RM control box simply a "bang bang" output, not an analog output?

Hi, The RM, like all of these implementations, use a PWM (pulse width modulation) or pulsed output. The pulse rates are in the < 1000Hz range. You can hear the RM output pretty well on your SSB or an AM radio. It sounds to be about 300 Hz to me. So it sends pulses of variouse widths that are all on, or all off, and the integration of same by the motor and hydraulics results in what appears to be an analog output. This approach gives the best efficiency from the drive electronics.

Hope that helps.

WBChristie
08-19-2013, 06:15 PM
Thanks, that does help. Which hydraulic pump did you use? I assume you are using the RM X5 tillerpilot control box to drive the pump?
Thanks for any input

brianb
08-19-2013, 09:40 PM
Thanks, that does help. Which hydraulic pump did you use? I assume you are using the RM X5 tillerpilot control box to drive the pump?
Thanks for any input

I use a small Type 1 pump from RM that does not include the clutch hydraulic bypass valve, so it is a bit less expensive. Any of the various type 1 pumps will work (Octopus/RM/Furuno/Teleflex).

I drive the hydraulics with two brains, the X5 is my back up and one of my own design is the primary. Both brains also drive the X5 tiller drive. This is another point of redundancy.

Brian

brianb
08-19-2013, 09:45 PM
The drive unit was from the S1000 AP, used for power boat installations. I cannot find the model in the new catalog, but it is still sold as a part via WM.

Brian

WBChristie
08-20-2013, 05:08 PM
The drive unit was from the S1000 AP, used for power boat installations. I cannot find the model in the new catalog, but it is still sold as a part via WM.

Brian
Did you use the S1000 pump with it? I would like to build a ram myself to eliminate the above deck electric tiller drive. I would appreciate as much info as you are willing to share.
Thanks
Gary

WBChristie
08-20-2013, 05:36 PM
Just saw that you use a type 1 pump in a previous post. I'm curious if you used a PLC or something like that for the "brain"?

brianb
08-20-2013, 05:41 PM
I used the S1000 pump driving a teleflex hydraulic cylinder. Pressure hoses are Teleflex purchased from a supplier off of ebay who customizes the length and has the tools to crimp the high pressure fittings (up to 1000lbs PSI). The hydraulic cylinder is made for outboard motor and stern drive application and is very seaworthy as it is made for direct exposure in the stern well of a power boat. As I said there is no reason to choose this pump. I choose it for cost and lack of clutch valve, which I did not want to power. The pump is a little nosier than a similar pump used in an NKE installation. The pump lasted me approx 9000 ocean miles until finally the motor brushes wore out. This happened several months back on the bay.

I have a small PVC tank for the hydro. fluid that I made from a section of PVC pipe. In the course of 5000 miles I added about 5 table spoons of fluid (or one west systems epoxy syringe full of Teleflex hydro. fluid).

Bleeding the system is easiest by using a pair of syringes to provide suction and compression. The vacuum helps get the air out.

The pump is either driven from my own AP electronics or an X5 controller. It ran night and day on the SHTP and the return trip. I did switch in the X5 tiller want occasionally while doing hydro. fluid refills or just wanting to hear a different note coming from my autopilot.

Does that help ?

Brian

brianb
08-20-2013, 05:44 PM
Oh, one other point, I spoke with the engineers at Teleflex. All their cylinders are made from the same materials. The only real difference is seal pressure ratings. They have two lines, one sounds more like a rugged ocean version. Actually not the case, the difference is the pressure rating. As I recall one line handles up to about 1200 psi, the other somewhat less. I only mention this because the lower cost unit is a very rugged design.

WBChristie
08-20-2013, 08:04 PM
Thanks for all of that Brian. I found this http://www.raymarine.com/view/?id=209 chart that shows which pump goes with which cylinder.. it could be useful for finding a cylinder for an existing pump or vice versa. It does not look like I will be saving any money over an electric linear drive, but it should be way more reliable. I do actually have a line on an S1000 pump, and might mate that with the new EV-100 brain and sensor..plus a i70 control head.
I just need to find a cylinder now, 10" stroke should be adequate. The low cost rugged Teleflex might be the way to go.

Brian, does the S1000 pump have a settable pressure relief valve? That thing will develop some serious force with a small cylinder.

brianb
08-20-2013, 08:32 PM
Gary,

FYI: I found virtually new Teleflex cylinders on ebay from outboard shops that were taking them off boats who were changing to other engines. The near new cylinder I have has been flawless for years and many ocean miles. Seals don't leak. The cost was less than half of the new models.

WBChristie
08-20-2013, 08:43 PM
Gary,

FYI: I found virtually new Teleflex cylinders on ebay from outboard shops that were taking them off boats who were changing to other engines. The near new cylinder I have has been flawless for years and many ocean miles. Seals don't leak. The cost was less than half of the new models.

Great! Thanks

pogen
08-21-2013, 10:53 AM
I just got this offer in my email, you can get a new Raymarine unit for free!

http://thechelseamagazinecompany.com/6NM-1S39K-2E76XVUPDC/cr.aspx

It's part of some contest from Yachts & Yachting Magazine, not a Nigerian autopilot scam.

When they talk about 9-axis, I guess they mean x, y, z, three angles, and three angular accellerations?? Or what? Or are some of those 'marketing' axes?

EDIT: I guess the best axes would be x'', y'', z'', thetax, thetay, thetaz, and thetax', thetay', thetaz'.

pogen
08-21-2013, 11:10 AM
Hey you can get a 9-axis sensor on a single chip, it is made just a couple of miles from my house.

http://www.invensense.com/mems/gyro/mpu9150.html

WBChristie
08-21-2013, 11:16 AM
The problem with the chip is how to interface it to an existing control. Very interesting though, thanks for sharing

pogen
08-21-2013, 11:33 AM
The problem with the chip is how to interface it to an existing control. Very interesting though, thanks for sharing

well maniacs like Brian are not afraid to roll their own!

I am kind of interested in getting a lower power ram for my system, it presently uses about 6A when the pump motor is on, and the solenoid draws 1A when engaged. I bought a very husky drive on the theory that a electric motor/gear drive would burn out under load. There must be something intermediate though.

WBChristie
08-21-2013, 01:26 PM
This is a great site that offers components that would make building your own doable: http://www.pololu.com/
They offer just about everything that a home brewer might need.. with the hydraulics being the exeption. It is very affordable stuff as well. Here is a video that shows a self balancing robot that uses cascaded PID control, very similar to what an autopilot would need: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=DmoShkJclLI

brianb
08-21-2013, 09:29 PM
I just got this offer in my email, you can get a new Raymarine unit for free!

http://thechelseamagazinecompany.com/6NM-1S39K-2E76XVUPDC/cr.aspx

It's part of some contest from Yachts & Yachting Magazine, not a Nigerian autopilot scam.

When they talk about 9-axis, I guess they mean x, y, z, three angles, and three angular accellerations?? Or what? Or are some of those 'marketing' axes?

EDIT: I guess the best axes would be x'', y'', z'', thetax, thetay, thetaz, and thetax', thetay', thetaz'.

My AP has 9 axis: XYZ for magnetic field, acceleration, and rate gyro's. No marketing axis or evil axis.

brianb
08-21-2013, 09:34 PM
This is a great site that offers components that would make building your own doable: http://www.pololu.com/
They offer just about everything that a home brewer might need.. with the hydraulics being the exeption. It is very affordable stuff as well. Here is a video that shows a self balancing robot that uses cascaded PID control, very similar to what an autopilot would need: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=DmoShkJclLI

Here is a youtube of my AP design in action on Elise, an Express 27 on a gusty run through the slot, using all 9 axis of data to maintain course: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWObyejTb3A

WBChristie
08-21-2013, 10:08 PM
Here is a youtube of my AP design in action on Elise, an Express 27 on a gusty run through the slot, using all 9 axis of data to maintain course: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWObyejTb3A


That looks very good. Do you have any video of a quartering sea with a bit of wind? Are you going to sell these...?

brianb
08-21-2013, 10:31 PM
No good shots in a heavy quartering seas, my videos of a SF to Kauai solo trip, under AP control, were lost when a gear bag leaked swimming back to the boat in Hanalei Bay. I have several beta units on a variety of boats, one out cruising, a few on the bay.

pogen
08-22-2013, 10:42 AM
Brian, what kind of servo algorithm are you using? PID, or with some feedforward, or coupling of pitch to anticipated yaw?

For example, in a quartering sea, as a wave approaches the stern will rise first (pitch) and then heel a bit (roll), and then the boat will yaw, say consistently toward the side the wave is on. So a human will anticipate the yaw and counter steer as he feels the pitch change. I believe that this is what is going on with the better pilots like NKE. But most manufacturers don't talk about what they are doing or even how they are sensing. The Nexus compass has MEMS type accellerometers in it, but they don't say what kind, and it is not clear that all the data gets sent over the bus to their AP control head, which is a pretty old design.


Edit: I did a little poking around on the web, it looks like Kalman filters are the done thing for this kind of control problem. But how to build the matrices? Maybe that is what is going on inside my electronic compass, which can give a good heading output even when the boat is heeled over or pitching down a wave. I think the AP is pretty crude though, only a PI with a feedforward term for when you are way off.

If one had lots of time, you could log all with wind data, attitude data, BSP etc. on different points of sail and sea states with a good driver, and 'teach' the algorithm what to do that way. A neural net, I think.

brianb
08-22-2013, 01:01 PM
Hi Dave,

A few responses:

Compass: For mems sensors without a gimbled platform one has to maintain a computed artificial horizon in which to translate the magnetometer sensor 3 axis data. That is typically done with the accelerometers.

Filtering: Yes, I use Kalman filtering as do others. The accelerometers are particularly noisy and sensitive to high frequency vibration. For example motor vibration can create offsets in computed results. A fun thing to try, set your heading on a calm day under sail, then turn on the engine and see if an error is introduced. I have done this with a couple of commercial units and both had apparent errors introduced with engine noise, in the range of 5 degrees. I have seen both offsets and course wandering increase in noisy environments.

Sea State: Yes, I use all the sensors to compensate for boat attitude and sea state. I could discuss the guts of the algorithms over a beer somewhere. It kind of is the secret sauce of the design.

Data Capture: Yes, I capture all the sensor data and NMEA, when attached, on a PC. I have hours of recorded data. This has been used extensively to perfect results on the water. I attached an example plot that shows an RM X5 recovering from a step change in course (20 degrees). The motor pulse data can be ignored.


424

brianb
08-22-2013, 02:05 PM
HI Dave,

I am looking for an optical wave estimator that can look out 100 yards and estimate sea state. Got any good optical concepts ?

WBChristie
08-22-2013, 06:09 PM
Brian, I can offer an excellent beta testing boat site on the Oregon coast :) Heavy displacement boat with big unbalanced rudder. :) Heavy quartering seas on demand. :)

brianb
08-22-2013, 07:21 PM
:) so how often do you get out ? One issue I have had with some folks is they don't actually do all that much sailing so feedback can be sparse. Or they always have crew so the AP isn't used. Is your boat a fin keel or full keel ? I am entertaining a couple more trial testers so let me know.

WBChristie
08-22-2013, 10:12 PM
I get out quite often, last week 3 times (Friday, Saturday, Sunday) Just completed a singlehanded trip from Brookings, OR to Columbia river (Ilwaco, WA) and return, going 100 miles offshore and covering 360 miles (on the return portion) I'm an ABYC certified electrician and have 25 years in industrial controls and automation. My boat has a full keel. We also have a small local race series that runs through the spring/summer/fall...unfortunately it is not well attended. We race every 2 weeks. I can film the pilot with a gopro....I have tuned PID loops for Boiler level control and things like that...might be useful.. also done quite a bit of motion control.
What do you think Boss?

brianb
08-23-2013, 08:31 AM
Gary,

I am sending you a PM.

Brian


I get out quite often, last week 3 times (Friday, Saturday, Sunday) Just completed a singlehanded trip from Brookings, OR to Columbia river (Ilwaco, WA) and return, going 100 miles offshore and covering 360 miles (on the return portion) I'm an ABYC certified electrician and have 25 years in industrial controls and automation. My boat has a full keel. We also have a small local race series that runs through the spring/summer/fall...unfortunately it is not well attended. We race every 2 weeks. I can film the pilot with a gopro....I have tuned PID loops for Boiler level control and things like that...might be useful.. also done quite a bit of motion control.
What do you think Boss?

JimQuanci
08-27-2013, 02:04 PM
Jim - a first key things to watch for no matter what AP system you end up choosing...

Get a good understanding of likely power usage - especially if you have a heavy helm that pilot will be "wrestling". You could end up running your engine/generator as little as 4 hours per day or as many as 9 hours per day depending on your AP power draw.

Budget for buying two of them. Over half of all SHTP racers lose their first autopilot. No matter how good an AP you have, you really do need a second one - and the second one needs to be a good one too.

Get an AP "one size too large" for the job. As you found out already, adverse conditions can really strain the AP. If your primary AP burns out in a day or two, its likely your secondary one will too. Those AP manufacturers tend to quote "one size too small" for what you really want/need.

I have an alpha spectra... its not cheap (though not the most expensive)... uses relatively little power... and can swing the wheel fast enough to steer under chute in 25k of wind. Though I have no idea what the "special" requirements might be for for an AP for a multihull... and I suspect for a performance multihull, AP requirements might be a bit different then for a monohull.

jimb522
10-05-2013, 06:18 PM
LUcie,
It is I, Jim Bates. I have been away from the forum since my original inquiry about autopilots, due to unscheduled clinical depression over sinking my boat shortly after making the inquiry. I just wasnt up to thinking about it. Good news was that it was only in 15 feet of water, bad news of course being that it was still over my head. I just saw Brian and Cliffs very helpful responses, and wanted to thank them for their detailed and very complete and helpful posts.
I have the boat docked back behind my house, and am trying to get motivated to get back on that horse. My wife was my crew that day, and was down below looking for lifejackets when it flipped. I hate the way that looks when I read it by the way, although, it may not rank in the top ten of stupid things I have done in my 69 years. It is the first boat I've sank at least. Well, the second if you count the NOYC Flying Scot regatta boat.
The other good news is that besides a few tears in the sails, and a broken sleeve in the mast, and a destroyed electrical system, it is repairable. I am installing two automatic bilge pumps in each ama before it leaves the dock again.
I guess the other good news is that I will not have the expense of supplies to feed the wife, as it will be a cold day in hell before she gets on a boat again.
The bad news, in all seriousness, is she was traumatized enough that she will never enjoy sailing again. That breaks my heart.
Jim

jimb522
10-05-2013, 07:43 PM
Good golly, is this you, Jim Bates? I've been looking for you since Ben and I chaired the TransPac in 2006!

Lucie Mewes

Lucie,
I replied to you on page 5. Sorry for the delay. You will understand.
Jim Bates

Mewes
10-06-2013, 09:49 AM
OMG!

Now there's a worthy news story, Jim. I am so sorry for your wife, and luckily, I have recovered from my sailing terrors. Recovery took about ten years. My new husband and I are about to depart for a quick cruise to Mexico.

Please keep me up to date on your back to the water progress.

Lucie

Mewes
10-06-2013, 09:54 AM
Good golly, this is such a great thread for folks who understand it!

Gary, are you planning to enter the TransPac?

Lucie

jimb522
10-21-2013, 07:09 AM
OMG!

Now there's a worthy news story, Jim. I am so sorry for your wife, and luckily, I have recovered from my sailing terrors. Recovery took about ten years. My new husband and I are about to depart for a quick cruise to Mexico.

Please keep me up to date on your back to the water progress.

Lucie

Lucie,
My concern is that my wife might want to solve her problem the same way as you, i.e.-get a new husband.
I dont know where I would find again such a good cook, that looks that good in a bikini. Of course now that she is not getting on a boat with me again, the bikini part is kind of moot.
Jim

Mewes
10-21-2013, 02:21 PM
No, Jim, the new husband wasn't the solution to liking sailing.

Some racing, some ocean sailing helped. And some classes. The split was over teenagers.

Good to see you here.

skatzman
11-11-2013, 10:35 PM
It's not if, it's when, the plastic tip breaks off the RayMarine 1000 or 2000 tiller pusher. Go to a hardware/plumbing supply and find:
brass adapter 3/8 x 3/8, flare x mip
124833 , lincoln product.
Fill the body of the brass adapter with epoxy or whatever. Drill a hole into, but not thru, the filled adapter. I used 7/64 to fit the tiller pin. Wrap the threads with teflon plumber tape. Thread it on the tiller pusher and enjoy using your auto pilot again. SDK

todd22123
11-26-2013, 10:30 PM
There is some collective opinion that for the Raymarine Autopilot, especially the previous X-5, to work well in apparent wind mode, it requires wind data from a Raymarine wind transducer via SeaTalk. More specifically, wind data from another manufacturer and input into the NMEA port on the X5 was inferior to Raymarine wired wind data via SeaTalk.

Has this changed now that there is a newer model of Raymarine Autopilot, Evolution EV-1, that occupies the similar market spot to the X-5? The Raymarine Evolution does not have an NMEA input, only SeaTalkNG (next generation) that is somehow similar to NMEA 2000. Raymarine now has acquired Tacktick and does not seem to market a Raymarine wind transducer speaking Seatalk. Further, Seatalk has been replaced by SeatalkNG (next generation). Raymarine offers a T122 wireless interface that will convert Tacktick wireless instruments to NMEA 0183. But the Raymarine Evolution Autopilot does not have an input for NMEA. There is a Raymaine product called iTC-5 Instrument Transducer Converter that would convert wired transducers to SeatalkNG, and that seems like it would work for wired transducers, but I cannot see how the Tacktick wireless system can work with the Raymarine Evolution Autopilot. Raymarine does have a NMEA 0181 to SeaTalk converter, so theoretically, the Tacktick wireless T122 could make NMEA 0183 that could be converted to Seatalk1 by the Raymarine converter, and Seatalk1 could be converted to SeatalkNG by the Seatalk 1 to SeatalkNG converter, but that seems silly to have 3 different things between the wireless instruments and the autopilot. Is there a way to more efficiently get the data to the autopilot?

Thanks,
Todd

WBChristie
11-27-2013, 12:24 PM
Todd, I'm using ST50 wind (seatalk 1) with an Evolution (EV-100 tiller pack) for steer to wind (apparent or true) The interface is Seatalk to seatalk ng (part number E22158)
It all seems to work quite well so far. The kit puts the seatalk 1 info onto the seatalk ng backbone. Caution, when doing this the seatalk ng backbone backpowers the seatalk 1 instruments. If you don't disconnect the old seatalk instrument power source, it is possible to indirectly power up the autopilot through the backbone. Not good.

todd22123
11-27-2013, 01:57 PM
Todd, I'm using ST50 wind (seatalk 1) with an Evolution (EV-100 tiller pack) for steer to wind (apparent or true) The interface is Seatalk to seatalk ng (part number E22158)
It all seems to work quite well so far. The kit puts the seatalk 1 info onto the seatalk ng backbone. Caution, when doing this the seatalk ng backbone backpowers the seatalk 1 instruments. If you don't disconnect the old seatalk instrument power source, it is possible to indirectly power up the autopilot through the backbone. Not good.

Thank you. If I understand correctly, any Raymarine instruments up to ST60 are able to do Seatalk or Seatalk NG with the backbone, but I do not see a straighforward way for the Tacktick wind transducer to get to SeatalkNG. I will post this to the Raymarine Technical Forum, as well.

Todd

489

WBChristie
11-27-2013, 05:27 PM
Sorry Todd, I misunderstood what you were asking. Would this NMEA 0183 to Seatalkng bridging device work?
http://www.imarineusa.com/actisensengw-1-stng.aspx
Or if the tacktic outputs nmea 2000 this could work -
http://www.blueheronmarine.com/Raymarine-A06046-Seatalk-NG-To-NMEA-2000-Male-Adapter-Cable-5962

todd22123
11-27-2013, 10:26 PM
Sorry Todd, I misunderstood what you were asking. Would this NMEA 0183 to Seatalkng bridging device work?
http://www.imarineusa.com/actisensengw-1-stng.aspx
Or if the tacktic outputs nmea 2000 this could work -
http://www.blueheronmarine.com/Raymarine-A06046-Seatalk-NG-To-NMEA-2000-Male-Adapter-Cable-5962

Thank you WBChrisitie-

Yes, the Actisense NMEA 0183 to SeatalkNG bridge device would combine two of the three steps. Previously, Tactick to NMEA 0183 with T122, followed by NMEA 0183 to Seatalk1 with Raymarine converter, followed by Seatalk1 to Seatalk NG with the Raymarine Seatalk1 to SeatalkNG converter. The last two steps are combined with the Actisense bridge.

It sounds like it would be too slow. I did post this to the Raymarine Technical Forum, so perhaps that will come up with something. http://raymarine.ning.com/forum/topics/how-can-tacktick-mn100-series-wind-instrument-and-speed

Todd

Submarino
02-26-2014, 03:25 PM
RM X5 tiller pilot repair under West Marine extended warranty.

My experience to aid others:

I purchased the extended warranty via Protection Plus who then hands off claims to AMT warranty in Texas. They were a little slow in responses, corrections and actions.

My X5 went into "Sea Talk" failure on the return of Longpac 2013. I tried some diagnoses but did not find the problem. It then returned to normal after a few weeks and was operational for 6 months and a few races. Then it went back into Sea Talk failure the day before 3BF.

Star Marine said that it was traced to sea water intrusion of the remote controller box. They could not see how water could get to it and neither could I, but there was dried salt residue on the electronic board. It must have been those wispering Gremlins with squirt bottles.


JB

JohnS
02-26-2014, 06:10 PM
JB,

Just to clarify, by "remote controller box" do you mean the control head, the object with the lcd screen that is used to control the AP. Or do you mean the course computer (the brains of the whole deal)? Or do you mean something else?

Submarino
02-27-2014, 02:42 PM
To clarify my "remote controller box" is not the LCD control/display or brain box, but rather the $400 dollar wireless remote control accessory that can be plugged into the brain box. Ray Marine S100, http://www.raymarine.com/view/?id=848. About $200 for a new wireless remote control box. Not covered under warranty.

I also asked Ian at Star Marine about the urban myth that the AP would shut down if the hand remote was immersed in water. He never heard of it or could NOT see how it could be done with the S100. For MOB situation. Part of my self recovery plan is to carry the remote on my vest.

Related to that is this snipet from the S100 wireless remote brochure.

"Warning signaled when the remote is out of range of the base station and automatically drops autopilot to standby" I will try this at the dock.

An additional thought about my X5 AP & West Marine inspired warranty. In my particular case, the cost of the warranty likely equalled the diagnostic labor of the AP system. If I had to purchase a new system, I would be inclined to NOT purchase the extended warranty. RM provided 2 years warranty from defects and then I coud get a third year by registering the product.


JB