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Philpott
10-10-2013, 09:22 AM
An article by Dan Newland and Orcon Corporation titled: Emergency Steering Methods and Rudder Construction will be copied and available @ the meeting. Do you want to read it ahead of time? Of course you do.

Philpott
10-10-2013, 10:56 AM
Collection of previous SSS Transpac Rudders:
http://sfbaysss.org/TransPac/transpac2008/emergency_rudder_designs/emergency_rudder_designs.html

AlanH
10-10-2013, 03:52 PM
Collection of previous SSS Transpac Rudders:
http://sfbaysss.org/TransPac/transpac2008/emergency_rudder_designs/emergency_rudder_designs.html

My emergency rudder in 2008 was a rudder/cassette design. There were pluses and minuses to the design. for one thing, since the body of the rudder blade was behind the axis of rotation, the rudder loaded up a lot. It was not fun to steer the boat with the setup, though it worked.

The rudder blade was foam core, such as what you can buy here:

https://www.flyingfoam.com/

I bought a precut 12 inch chord 72-inch long symmetrical foam blade. Don't get styrene, get the EPP core. This is important, as epoxy will dissolve styrene. Hmm.. is that right? Maybe the polyester resins dissolve styrene. Hmmm. Well this was a long time ago.

I then layered up a few layers of knytex in epoxy over the foam blade. I used three layers PLUS two layer of unidirectional carbon fiber for a rudder blade that was probably ten pounds heavier than it needed to be but was the far side of bombproof. I'm a crummy glassworker, I didn't vacuum bag it or anything so it wasn't all THAT fair, but I found it acceptable. I figured this was a "get me there" rudder rather than a "Keep racing" rudder so i sanded it but I sure didn't get it super-smooth. The foil you'll get from the foam wing places is pretty thick, it's WAY thicker than a J-24 rudder for example. This has hydrodymanic advantages and disadvantages.

I made the cassette out of laminated 1/8 inch doorskins, available from Home Depot. This was screwed and glued to a shaped bit of 2 x 4 at the front. There were straps of uni carbon fiber wrapped around the entire cassette. I had a welder make up custom pintles, which were pretty strong but not pretty.

All in all I think the device was acceptable, if not pretty. It was hella strong and didn't cost much, though the cassette took me forever to make.

If I were to do this over again on a boat the size of a Santa Cruz 27 I would probably not go for a blade/cassette system. On something 30-foot -plus I don't think you have an option, it's just too difficult to wrestle the blade and gudgeons/pintles together when the boat is bounding around and every waves shoves the blade one way or another. You need to keep the blade out of the water...drop the cassette on the gudgeons, and drop the blade into the cassette. Instead of that, I would probably mold in carbon/glass brackets for a one-piece rudder with "glassed on pintles" and make sure I could lash the rudder to the boat with a tether for insurance, while I was cursing for the 45 minutes it might take to get the blasted things lined up and engaged.

If I were taking a smaller boat, in the 24-25 foot range, I'd probably search ebay for a used J-24 rudder or other transom-hung rudder and work with that.

Philpott
10-10-2013, 04:19 PM
Thanks, Alan. I don't suppose you have any photos? Buying a used rudder. What a brilliant idea for my Cal2-27. Lucie gave me a copy of your very sensible and minimalist electric plan for some Transpac past. I plan to scan it onto the forum for everybody else to read. I really appreciated your attitude.

brianb
10-10-2013, 08:04 PM
Hi Jacky,

I have a rudder cassette system I made. It actually steered me to Hawaii when my main rudder broke. It uses a similar construction technique to what Alan described. PM me, it might be available as there is the possibility I won't be sailing during the SHTP. It has been installed on several boats besides mine. It would be a bit large for your boat, but could be hung on the transom. An alternative, find a rudder of a modern catamaran and purchase it and the cassette.

Wylieguy
10-11-2013, 09:16 PM
Jackie, I actually have Alan's emergency rudder and have adapted the transom part to fit a Wyliecat with an outboard mount receiver, but I do have his original bits. Let's talk Wed. night about a deal. I do carry it around on the OYRA, BAMA, and SSS ocean races, but maybe I could get along without it for some of them next year?

I think a cassette/blade ER would be better than hanging over the transom trying to get those pintle thingies into that gudeon thing. That was hard for me to do back when I sailed Lasers and the rudder came off!

Pat

Wylieguy
10-12-2013, 09:54 PM
Jackie,
Okay I've been thinking, a dangerous activity for sure. Your other post asking about brackets reminded me you're using a wind vane for self-steering. I think that complicates the ER issue for several reasons. 1) The vane occupies the same space on the transom as the ER would. 2) If you can mount both the vane and the ER on the transom, you've got to have a mean of connecting the vane with the ER.

If you were to use a J/24 rudder with its own tiller that means setting up those connections. If you were to use an ER in a cassette that's attached to your existing tiller it means a new set of lines added to the mix.

By the way, if you use an ER connected to your regular tiller, you need to plan on how that will work if your forced to shove the regular rudder out and the shaft the tiller hooks onto goes with the rudder. The tiller needs to pivot on something.

Pat

Philpott
10-13-2013, 10:51 AM
Yes, my Navik windvane complicates the process. With help from a friend, we disconnnected the paddle and vane from the mounting frame. It is currently in three parts. I suspect, if I have to do that offshore, I can, and replace the current paddle with an emergency transom-hung rudder. I have a Simrad tiller pilot.

AlanH
10-21-2013, 05:51 PM
I took a SC 27 to Hawaii and had a Navik vane on the boat. My idea was that if disaster struck, the vane was coming off, the emergency rudder was going on, and the autopilot was doing a lot of steering. Also, the skipper would be doing a lot of steering.

note that if you can't mount a rudder with a tiller sticking into the cockpit, you can have the tiller stick out back like an enormous stinger. Mount a spinnaker pole crosswise across the cockpit to improve the angles and then use lines to a steering whipstaff in the cockpit, to do the steering. If done up cleverly, the autohelm can connect to the whipstaff.

AlanH
10-21-2013, 06:03 PM
Jackie,
Okay I've been thinking, a dangerous activity for sure. Your other post asking about brackets reminded me you're using a wind vane for self-steering. I think that complicates the ER issue for several reasons. 1) The vane occupies the same space on the transom as the ER would. 2) If you can mount both the vane and the ER on the transom, you've got to have a mean of connecting the vane with the ER.

If you were to use a J/24 rudder with its own tiller that means setting up those connections. If you were to use an ER in a cassette that's attached to your existing tiller it means a new set of lines added to the mix.

By the way, if you use an ER connected to your regular tiller, you need to plan on how that will work if your forced to shove the regular rudder out and the shaft the tiller hooks onto goes with the rudder. The tiller needs to pivot on something.



Pat

This part is kind of important. Ask Rob MacFarlane about what it's like to sail to Hawaii with a main rudder that's jammed over on one side.

I don't think that a J-24 rudder is big enough to steer a Cal 27. Or rather, it could steer a Cal 27 as long as the main rudder is either gone, or jammed on centerline, or completely free-spinning. You absolutely need to set up a system in your cockpit where a tiller or whipstaff can be connected to lines that go to the tiller. On the other hand, the rudder I made that Pat has, probably would do the job on your Cal 27.

There ARE other options...watch ebay for stuff like this.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Boaters-Resale-Shop-of-Tx-12070601-24-Capri-22-Externally-hung-rudder-/271016393273?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item3f19d5fa39&vxp=mtr

Not that I'm suggesting that a Capri 22 rudder will steer your Cal, but you get the idea.

Philpott
10-21-2013, 07:48 PM
I took a SC 27 to Hawaii and had a Navik vane on the boat. My idea was that if disaster struck, the vane was coming off, the emergency rudder was going on, and the autopilot was doing a lot of steering. Also, the skipper would be doing a lot of steering.



That's what I think would happen, but it is comforting to hear someone else think so, too. My Navik is currently in three parts while I locate (or have Chris at Svendsen's fabricate) the appropriately sized stainless brackets. To take the paddle and then the top off is a matter of several well placed screws (or, in a panic, I could always disconnect the frame and throw it all into the sea). And that photo of the rudder in Texas looks beefy, and not unlike Dura Mater's rudder. The rudder on my Cal 20 was similarly fat and strong, just not long enough for my current boat: her transom is 36" off the water. Thanks very much for the advice, Alan!

Wylieguy
10-21-2013, 10:15 PM
Jackie, Old rudders of various sizes, vintages, and design should be available locally. There are enough old boats/junked boats/rudders sitting around that asking some questions at boatyards, independent boat guys like Gordie, or a listing on Craigs List should get you one pretty cheap - if that's the way you want to go.

I think it's absolutely necessary to get rid of the old rudder if it's bent, free wheeling, or only a stub -especially if you need to use the tiller as part of the emergency steering. I carry a length of wooden dowling (closet rod at Home Depot) long enough to shove the rudder post down and out of the boat. I've done it at the berth, so I know it can be done. I also have a shorter length of tubing which I attach to the rudder head fitting that fits into the now-empty rudder housing to provide a pivot point for the tiller. Now I'm ready to attach the lines from the emergency rudder and begin steering.

If you're planning on an electric autohelm and hand steering, getting the Navik vane off will clear the transom for almost any kind of emergency rudder. If you plan to use the Navik plus an ER you've got to figure out how to mount both of them on the transom. If you do plan to use electric steering you'll need to provide enough battery power to do that, which probably means running your engine several hours per day. Think how much fuel you'll need.

Pat

Wylieguy
10-21-2013, 10:38 PM
Jackie, There's a transom hung Clipper 26-30 rudder for $350 on Craigs List in Redwood City, I think. I don't know how that would work for your boat, but it might be worth a look. 650.771.1945. If you're going with a separate rudder.

Cover Craft
10-21-2013, 11:29 PM
Remember that rudders don't have to be on the centerline! The Navik vane, among others, is narrow enough even with the diagonal struts that an outboard rudder can easily be fitted off center on a Cal 27 with enough room to swing easily to more rudder angle than it should ever have. This is how Constellation's E-redder and vane are set up, there's plenty of clearance. Of course it will be a little less effective heeled one way than the other but a lot better than jettisoning the vane!

After all the first rudders were "steer-boards" on the right side of the boat.

-Tom

BobJ
10-22-2013, 10:28 AM
RAG's e-rudder is off-center because of the long backstay tang. One solar panel has to come off to use it, but that's easy.

As someone else wrote, I also carry a rudder-tube sized dowel to drive the old rudder and post out out of the tube if that proves necessary - possible on my boat since the rudder tube is glassed in from top to bottom. You should check to make sure you can seal the lower tube with something if yours is in two pieces.

AlanH
10-23-2013, 02:16 PM
The Navik is great. There's no reason to heave the thing into the ocean, though, if you have to take it off. Just remove the paddle (mind your fingers!!!) and then take the rest of the thing off the back of the boat. Stash it in the forepeak.

Buying a pre-made rudder that fits your boat reasonably well is WAY ahead of the game, compared to building one. That is, unless you're after the absolute lightest of light e-rudders and can vacuum bag a foam core with epoxy and carbon cloth. The only downside to a full rudder is the issue of getting the blasted thing lined up - gudgeons and pintles- with the blade in the water. If you just understand that you'll be wrestling the damn thing around for an hour before you get it to work, and that you'll be tired, sweaty and furious by the time it's done, then there ya go. You're set.

Since you opted for the Navik, not a Monitor or Hydrovane, you're going to have to have some sort of non-windvane-attached rudder.

AlanH
10-23-2013, 02:25 PM
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/boa/4136334706.html

5 foot long rudder. If you mounted gudgeons on the appropriate places on the transom and had a somewhat shorter rudder stick out the BACK of the boat, attaches to lines that ran to a whipstaff in the cockpit, then this might work. If the guy thinks that it's a Cal 20 rudder, then it's probably too small, but maybe???

http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/boa/4093712314.html

That one is 'waaay south of here, but it's probably big enough for your boat. If it's 71 inches long, that's almost 6 feet long. If your transom is 3 feet, and the head of the rudder needs to stick up 8-9 inches over the transom, then that gives you 3 - 3 1/2 feet of rudder blade in the water.

PERSONALLY?>???? if it were me? I'd call the guy, make a deal on the phone and drive down there. Dead serious about that.

todd22123
10-23-2013, 09:24 PM
There are some used rudders at Blue Pelican in Alameda.

Todd

sdpaine@cox.net
11-24-2013, 10:52 PM
I have a Capri 25 with a vane on the stern so I have been thinking about these issues. I attempted to purchase the Capri 22 rudder mentioned above but the guy really did not want to sell it as he is using it for his boat. Bit of a run around, that. I did purchase a J24 rudder (not cheap) nor is the hardware to mount it (1/2" pin hardware is costly to the tune of a couple of hundred new).

Some ideas I considered, good and some not so good

Mounting off center on the transom - no problem with handling but servo blade still hits

Building a frame around the back of the vane, top the rudder with a quadrant of sorts, and use lines to link it to the vane and/or tiller. This would not need a tiller at all, The lines could be lead directly to the tiller and the existing tiller could be used to steer by hand or autopilot. I am still keeping this option open.

I have an old Hasler gear that is easily moved aft a few feet to allow space for the rudder head. I wonder if the water diverted in direction would compromise the action of the servo blade?

Mount the emergency rudder off the side of the boat like the Viking ships (steerboard became starboard, at least in nautical folk lore).

As mentioned above, remove the vane and go electric auto pilot to steer. I am currently favoring this option for simplicity, but being able to continue with all steering options open is pretty attractive so I may end up with a way to extend the vane aft in back of the rudder (only about 14").

I know Minnie's in Newport (So Cal) has some rudders in the back.

Doug Paine

BobJ
11-24-2013, 11:03 PM
For a boat the size of yours, wouldn't a sweep (long oar) work adequately? Just keep it lashed to the stanchions until you needed to use it.

Those J/24 rudders are heavy. Besides the storage, I can't imagine trying to attach one in a seaway.

brianb
11-24-2013, 11:12 PM
You can't set the vane up to support an E Rudder ? Several models do. If you could do that you could then use a tiller pilot to drive the E Rudder if you ever lost your rudder.

I sailed my J24 from mile rock to Richmond with an "oar" (spin pole + floor boards bolted on}. It was no picnic. If you go that route consider having lines attached out near the end of the oar and steer with the lines. I think commodore Tompkins has a good description of an oar set up that is known to work well.

Brian

brianb
11-24-2013, 11:20 PM
any pics of your boats stern ?

sdpaine@cox.net
11-24-2013, 11:22 PM
You are correct and oar would work. And you are correct again about the J24 rudder, they are heavy. I played with it over the weekend and used my twings to lower it slowly down from the plate on my split back stay. I also played with lines going to the stern pulpit to steady it and they seemed to work. Only 3 ft. seas and 10 knot winds however. I want a system that I can continue to use my vane and autopilot with, in fact I would hope that I could continue to sail without a significant loss of performance (I am interested to see if the boat performs better with the transom rudder!).
thank you for your input. I am new to this and there is a great deal I have not even begun to consider.
Doug

sdpaine@cox.net
11-24-2013, 11:29 PM
any pics of your boats stern ?

I will be down on the boat tomorrow and will take a picture and post it. Attached is a picture from last summer. 484

BobJ
11-25-2013, 12:11 AM
A backup steering method is required of course, but of greater concern is the construction and condition of the primary rudder and post (better to not need the backup).

The Capri 25's rudder post is fairly thin-walled stainless tubing, the same as the Kirby 23 which lost its rudder in the 2006 race. The Kirby's rudder simply snapped off at the hull, presumably due to hidden crevice corrosion in the post. With this manner of construction and its age (guessing mid-80's) I would certainly drop the rudder and inspect the rudder post carefully. Even then you can't see what the post inside the rudder looks like.

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/Capri/Rudderfix.pdf

s/ Mr. Joy and Sunshine

glennp
11-25-2013, 07:00 AM
I have a full keel alberg 30 with a Cape Horn Windvane on the transom- my primary self steering gear. I had Yves at Cap Horn fabricate pintles/brackets on the outboard rear edge of the self steering vertical post, so I could hang an emergency rudder. So far never tried it out! Actually dont have the spare rudder yet, alas.

My question is assuming I make up a cassatte and rudder assembly, once mounted, does the emergency rudder aft of the self steering blade render the self steering unit unusable? Seems like it would. If so, id an emergency rudder were mounted off the transom, on the side next to the self steering blade, would the self steering then still be functionable?

Philpott
11-25-2013, 09:21 AM
We need a couple of people to talk about emergency rudders at the January 8 Seminar @ the Oakland Yacht Club. I know there are hundreds of you lurking out there. Now is the time for you to step up and tell us what you have done along with photos of your efforts (taken with your digital camera, no need for a professional photographer). If you have actually used the emergency rudder, mo betta. Tell us how hard it was to use and under what conditions. If it didn't work, why didn't it work? If it worked, why do you think that happened? Email me privately if you prefer. If you are in Maine and can't come out, send photos and your experience. Please. I'm in charge until Lucie comes back and I've never used an emergency rudder. Jacqueline.philpott@gmail.com (that's jacqueline dot philpott)

Philpott
11-25-2013, 10:46 AM
Here is a handout from Rob MacFarlane from the 2002 Transpac Seminar:

http://sfbaysss.net/archive-shtp-websites/transpac2002/selfsteering_seminar_1.pdf

pogen
11-25-2013, 01:26 PM
Greg Nelson built my e-rudder and that of several other PacCup/SHTP competitors.

Here is his company: http://hi-modulus.com/

You can see my rudder here: http://neversealand.downtothesea.org/2012/03/27/e-rudder/

I'm sure he would be happy to come and say a few words, or at least send a bunch of pics of his installations.

-- D.

Mewes
11-25-2013, 01:39 PM
Rob spoke from experience with his rudder.

A bigger deal with the Kirby 23 was that after the primary rudder snapped, so did the e-rudder.

Lucie

sdpaine@cox.net
11-26-2013, 10:28 PM
any pics of your boats stern ?

Imagine, I got called into work yesterday and so was not able to get down to the boat. Some people just do not seem to get their priorities straight! I had boat work to do!!

I have attached a picture of the stern and vane, As you can see there is no way that the servo blade on a Hasler SP vane can act as a rudder (the original blade was a triangular shape, I created the foil shaped servo). As of this weekend there will be rudder fittings for the J24 rudder. I am thinking over whether to make a frame to extend the vane aft so that I can use it with the transom rudder. I am also putting in two 4" drains just above the small ones. I got green water pooped last summer and I learned I want water out of the cockpit FAST. When I got back I looked up the weight of a cubic yard of water ( I figure my cockpit can hold three cubic yards or more). The weight of a cubic yard of water is 1,681.297 pounds so three cubic yards in my cockpit would weigh roughly two and a half tons. Hard for the stern to react to the next wave with that kind of weight.

Thank you for the information on the Kirby rudder, and the suggestions with respect to examining mine. I did repair the slop in the rudder tube a few years ago using West Epoxy and graphite filler injected into the tube holding a well waxed rudder tube. Well, wax or not it was a bear getting the rudder tube back out again. I remove the rudder a few time a year for lubrication and inspection (one of the advantages of dry sailing the boat). I can see down the tube and all seems well on that score.

Again, thank you to all who take the time to contribute to those of us new to this enterprise.488

brianb
12-25-2013, 09:44 PM
For those of you who are out of town we will attempt a SKYPE conference call. Rick of LightSpeed was our guinea pig for the last seminar and found the SKYPE live feed useful. Here is how to join in.

You create a SKYPE account, the free version should work.
You then search for facebook:brian.boschma and request to befriend Mr. Boschma.
He will accept your request and place you in a call group.

On Jan 8th the SKYPE conference will be started at 7 20 PM. You should connect to the conference at that time.

The video will be from a laptop computer pointed at the speaker. The video will be only as good as the PC's camera.

We will again have video's of the seminar available afterwards.

Brian

sleddog
12-26-2013, 12:35 AM
In any race to Hawaii, the steering system takes more abuse than any other moving part on the boat. In tradewind running conditions it is not unusual for the steering to move 2,000-3,000 times/hour. If the boat is not balanced, there is gonna be a lot of strain on the steering system.

With compromised steering, getting safely to port is one thing. The other half of the equation is: wouldn't it be more fun to continue sailing to Hanalei, finish before the deadline, partake of Tree Time, and be awarded your SHTP belt buckle?

As one designs and builds emergency steering, keep in mind the goal is to sail near maximum efficiency. And get to Hanalei on time. Otherwise you may have to divert to someplace you don't want to go.

This is not an unachievable goal. Transpac Race boats have a long tradition of finishing in style after facing steering adversity. In 1949, FLYING CLOUD won Class A in the Honolulu Race after sailing two days without a rudder. In 1982, MERLIN was first-to-finish Pacific Cup after losing her steering sprocket, chain, cable, and quadrant, and steering under emergency tiller for the final 100 miles.

brianb
12-27-2013, 11:14 PM
Call for Emergency Rudder examples:

In years past we had seminars where a few souls brought in their emergency rudders and spent a few minutes describing them. I assume we have entrants that would like to see some implementations. If anyone has a rudder they could share with the group please bring it along and please let us know you will bring it.

Regards,

Brian

Lightspeed
12-28-2013, 09:44 AM
Call for Emergency Rudder examples:

In years past we had seminars where a few souls brought in their emergency rudders and spent a few minutes describing them. I assume we have entrants that would like to see some implementations. If anyone has a rudder they could share with the group please bring it along and please let us know you will bring it.

Regards,

Brian

Brian, I will bring Lightspeed's, it was built by Gordie Nash. Carbon Fiber cassette type. If Gordie is in attendance maybe he can walk through the construction.

brianb
12-28-2013, 11:12 AM
Great ! I will toss mine in the car so we can see at least two implementations. Mine has about 10 passages logged and was once actually used to get to Kanehoe.

BB

Wylieguy
12-28-2013, 11:48 AM
I plan to bring mine, although it's tainted by being dragged along on the PacCup instead of the TransPac. Actually it's originally Alan H's so I guess it's legit. Pat

Philpott
12-28-2013, 02:58 PM
I think that rudder lives in infamy. And will Mr Hebert be joining us? Max Crittenden is bringing his emergency rudder and so is Pat Broderick. Brian Cline will be bringing photos of the installation of a Cape Horn windvane onto Maris, his Dana 24. Installations are tricky, and the brackets are important. Not everybody will buy a new windvane with ready made brackets (says she who bought a used Navik and is still angsting about the brackets). Lots of visual aids and problem solving methods.

Critter
12-28-2013, 11:32 PM
I'll try to bring the remains of my original rudder too. It's somewhat entertaining.

Max

BobJ
01-11-2014, 12:02 AM
Brian (Moderator), Max, Bob and Greg (E-Rudder Samples)

http://youtu.be/9tr7Y065CGY

Greg, Pat and Rick (more E-Rudders)

http://youtu.be/p86U38UZR-Q

Hans Bernwall (Windvanes and M-Rud's)

http://youtu.be/9Wy-3tyyIIQ

More Hans (M-Ruds)

http://youtu.be/OQVYyjXNL3Q

Brian (Autopilots)

http://youtu.be/lpU5veYdwz8

Brian (Autopilots - sorry the screen doesn't show much)

http://youtu.be/5CgiBd6m3ew

.

sdpaine@cox.net
01-11-2014, 09:59 AM
FYI - I tried to buy the Capri 22 rudder and after a number of communications back and forth and the guy actually did not want to sell it as he is using it on his boat currently. Then why list?? Go figure.
Now have a J24 rudder to do the job on my Capri 25.