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brianb
12-05-2013, 07:34 AM
Tracker Type Comparison:

Yellow Brick (YB), DeLorme(DL)
Common features:
Both use Iridium satellites for 100% coverage of the course. Both provide hourly position updates. Both are self contained. Both have mapping services for online viewing.

Differences:
YB are rented units, DL is purchased.
If DL were to be selected the sailors would own the units once the race was over.
DL's "In Reach" unit has built in short message service via a Bluetooth link to a smart phone or computer. YB's base unit does not provide this feature.
YB provides a website accessible by all that shows hourly reports. DL has a website service for groups that shows global position at a premium price.
YB units will run for about 30 days and possibly longer. DL would likely achieve 20 days but would need testing. In reality DL would have to include a small external battery to assure run time over the race course.
YB is waterproof and mountable on the boats rail. DL is watertight but to accomodate a battery it would have to be housed in a small Otter Box and attached to the rail, at a small cost.
DL's quarterly service would allow initial costs to be similar to YB but the added battery and cost of the Enterprise mapping service would drive the per boat cost well above the YB service.
In summary DL, while attractive would not be turn key for the user or the committee, and would lack affordable website position reporting.

BobJ
12-05-2013, 09:14 AM
At least YB knows how to project the results using TOD now. I corrected all the ratings and did the math for them in 2012 - I hope they saved the formulas.

(No, I'm not indicating acquiescence . . .)

brianb
12-05-2013, 10:35 AM
Understood.........you are still in the no way Jose column.

WBChristie
12-05-2013, 03:12 PM
How many would be competitors for next year already own a DL...? :)

Mewes
12-06-2013, 09:08 PM
When I want to look at YB, I have to buy each race.

The racers I know with DL's do not mount them on the rail, they mount them at the nav station. They also use them for messaging and with other interfaces.

RC needs only 12 hourly position reports, not hourly.

Bob, what do you mean you did the TOD for YB in 2012?

While DeLorme charges extra for its group mapping service, I understood that this can be done in-house, an outside service is not necessarily required.

brianb
12-06-2013, 10:47 PM
To make DL bullet proof we the RC need to do the following:
1 Supply a waterproof box and an extra battery for the unit. This is to allow external mounting, else the skipper could accidentally take the DL offline. The battery is to assure operation all the way.
2 Test the lifetime once a battery choice is made.
3 Set up mode of operation for all units prior to install.
-- if skipper wants to use the messaging service than we will have to enable bluetooth in the setup. Bluetooth battery use will have to be tested.
4 Construct a mapping site and debug this prior to race start.

Seems like too much effort when we can go turn key with YB, almost no effort.
BB

brianb
12-06-2013, 10:50 PM
We don't know how many competitors have a DL, because we only have 3 entrants and of that number we know one has a Spot.

sdpaine@cox.net
12-07-2013, 08:19 AM
I have the DeLorme SE that I used offshore last year. I had it mounted below at the nav station. A nice feature is that the tracking website posts the text messages you send on the track whare and when you sent them. While a connection to a laptop makes texting easier, it can be done directly from the unit. I can assure you it does not need to be on the rail. I can charge from the ships system or it can operate on the batteries. I sent and received texts from my students and family easily. DeLorme offers a 'seasonal' subscription that costs me about $40.00 a month for a three month period. The cost of the subscription depends on the amount of texting you are planning on doing.Access to the tracking website was easy for the people watching. I am really impressed with the unit. My wife uses it on her backpacking trips. This is a piece of gear that has really performed flawlessly and is easy to use.

brianb
12-07-2013, 08:43 AM
I have the DeLorme SE that I used offshore last year. I had it mounted below at the nav station. A nice feature is that the tracking website posts the text messages you send on the track whare and when you sent them. While a connection to a laptop makes texting easier, it can be done directly from the unit. I can assure you it does not need to be on the rail. I can charge from the ships system or it can operate on the batteries. I sent and received texts from my students and family easily. DeLorme offers a 'seasonal' subscription that costs me about $40.00 a month for a three month period. The cost of the subscription depends on the amount of texting you are planning on doing.Access to the tracking website was easy for the people watching. I am really impressed with the unit. My wife uses it on her backpacking trips. This is a piece of gear that has really performed flawlessly and is easy to use.

Hi SD,
Sounds great. In speaking with DL sales they tell me to get a "fleet" map, that is with more than two users, they require the purchase of an "enterprise" acct. They admitted that this would not be cost effective compared to other commercial mapping providers for 20 users who also have to purchase a 4 month subscription. The enterprise account will be a large expense. TO do the mapping function for the fleet we are then left to fend for ourselves as a club. That leaves us with having to duplicate what YB provides at no extra cost. Presently, unless DL were to alter their plan, the YB approach is lower cost and bullet proof for the sailors, their onlookers/loved ones, and the SSS committee. I have a few more questions pending at DL but it doesn't look like the best approach.

Harrier
12-07-2013, 09:51 AM
How about eliminating the "Tracker" requirement from the race instructions....???

Philpott
12-07-2013, 11:57 AM
How about eliminating the "Tracker" requirement from the race instructions....???

As a Blue Star mom, I would never argue with a general.

pogen
12-07-2013, 02:47 PM
I'm not that familiar with DeLorme, but from the discussion above and what I have seen from Yellowbrick on many races in the past they have a very easy to use system from the point of view of both the competitors and those whose job it is to get tracking info to the public. The YB unit is completely self contained and imposes no additional work load on the competitor after install. The YB unit should be mounted on the rail for use -- this is mandated in the SIs for other races. I am concerned that if one is operating the Delorme below decks (possibly below the waterline) without a deck-mounted antenna that it may not be as reliable as YB. YB also has a good track record the last few years as the tracker for Transpac, Pac Cup, Cabo Races, etc. and I understand customer service is good.

Even if we were to make the fairly radical change to use tracker data in place of daily manual position reports, we would still be faced with the same DL/YB system choice. Neither, I believe, gives feedback to the sender that his message has been received.

In the 2012 PacCup, one acceptable method of daily position reporting was to send an SMS via satphone to a certain shoreside phone number, and a few minutes later one would get a pingback text confirming message receipt. I think this worked well. Note that for PacCup and other races, if satphone is an essential part of your comms for position reporting, then a deck level antenna is required.

So all in all using what we know today, I would support Yellowbrick as the choice if a tracker is to be mandated.

Harrier
12-07-2013, 03:16 PM
I'd agree with the previous post, IF trackers are mandated. I also think that, if trackers are not mandated, then SatFone
transmitted position reports should be enabled as an alternative to SSB reports, which may not always be suitable due to propagation problems.

ronnie simpson
12-08-2013, 04:13 AM
because we only have 3 entrants .

who are the 3 entrants?

i am a huge fan of the yellowbrick trackers over any other alternative - if trackers are mandated.

and i am a huge fan of trackers being mandated. it's 2014. the technology is there and it works. it is positive in every single aspect except for the matter of cost.

last year alone it saved me from penalties of not checking in when i had absolutely no battery power in the race. hand steering a moore with a chute up, i didnt really want to have to text on a sat phone either. instad, the brilliant little automatic, bulletproof reliable, beacon mounted on my pulpit did it all for me. and it allowed me, a sponsored entrant- to be viewed by sponsors and supporters. the yellowbrick format makes the race infinitely more attainable, viewable and entertaining to anyone not actually sailing on a boat. in this day and age of social media, we should be doing what we can to keep the race vibrant and relevant and the yb format is brilliant.

and then after the race the tracker allowed me and my really cool friend ruben to go on a fun boat ride in maui and help a sick shtp entrant get his house back.

in a solo ocean race, i very much like to simply be able to sail my boat and not do much else but sail my boat. even checking in is a burden if you are focused on sailing. i skipped many check ins in 2010 because only 1 per day was required. and last year when i physically didnt have the ability to check in and was totally focused on sailing, the tracker allowed me to remain focused on sailing.

BobJ
12-08-2013, 09:58 AM
This race isn't to feed the social media. It has never been a popularity contest or a means to build a sailing career.

For years we have been able to get the position information sent ashore and put up on a web page. The volunteer effort required to get that done is part of what keeps us together as a club. Yes, it takes some work - both on the part of the skippers and a couple of folks here at home who love the race and want to support it with their time and efforts. Do we no longer have any of those people?

Indeed, some years skippers had power problems which caused them to miss check-ins. They paid a time penalty for it. It's supposed to work that way to encourage good preparation. That's why we have seminars, we help each other, give advice, etc.

The problem is that most of you lack the long-term history and perspective on this race.

Harrier
12-08-2013, 11:18 AM
Bob: Your last comment could be arguable, to say the least!

Used to be that those competitors who were ham licensed picked up VHF positions when possible and sent tham back to a Ham in the Oakland Yacht Club. Probably less than half the fleet got their positions reported to RC. But on we went. I still am adamantly against penalties for not reporting. With race being probably the most expensive W. Coast race, it seems to me that garnering a 1 hour penaly per day in the event of failure of a piece of Japanese radio equipment is shameful!

So, at least, the Yellow Brick in last year's race eliminated that problem. So if the RC is going to require mandatory daily checkins...or else!...I vote for the Yellow Brick. "IF" is the operative word. I'm more inclined to not require checkins. Enable them, encourage them, but don't penalize us for electronic failures. As I recall, your mentioned once that , as Race Chairman, you were worried that competitor "X" could not communicate positions. I'd say: Don't be.

Lightspeed
12-09-2013, 10:36 AM
Lightspeed is one of the three signed up and here are my thoughts:

1. I hope the final decision will be made by the majority of the racers.
2. I vote for Yellow Brick.
3. Lightspeed had YB in last year’s Pac Cup and it worked flawlessly, clip it on the stern and go.
4. The race is a personal challenge but many of my family and friends have worked hard to help Lightspeed. They want to see the race and YB tracking is a simple way to do that.
5. Technology is moving so fast that the device you own/buy today will most likely be obsolete in 3 to 4 years so rent YB.
6. Last, Ronnie is right. Things can get out of control and YB’s simplicity makes it my vote.

Rick/Lightspeed

Critter
12-09-2013, 12:18 PM
Bob, what do you mean you did the TOD for YB in 2012?
As I recall, at some point, during or shortly after the race, the scoring was totally wrong. YB apparently didn't understand how to do TOD scoring.

pogen
12-09-2013, 12:29 PM
I'm pretty sure if we can coordinate with YB with enough advance notice, providing them the exact formula etc., and possibly doing some dry-run testing beforehand, we can get the real-time scoring estimate to work.

brianb
12-09-2013, 11:19 PM
I wonder if the live scoring guess should be left to the committee and not the satellite service provider ? After all it is just a guess until all boats have arrived. A daily spread sheet could be put up to show standings for those onshore.

BobJ
12-10-2013, 11:08 AM
As I recall, at some point, during or shortly after the race, the scoring was totally wrong. YB apparently didn't understand how to do TOD scoring.

Now you know who fixed it. It's one of many reasons why I'm not as enamored with YB as some of you. TOD is easier than TOT but they couldn't figure it out.

brianb
12-10-2013, 12:36 PM
Now you know who fixed it. It's one of many reasons why I'm not as enamored with YB as some of you. TOD is easier than TOT but they couldn't figure it out.

I assume this was a live guess of leaders etc ? If so, how did you project forward to the finish line to guess who would win ? I once did a sheet for the Pac Cup and made the assumption that the average speed over the course to date would be maintained to the finish line. Did you do something more sophisticated ?

BB

MichaelJefferson
12-10-2013, 01:52 PM
Hello everyone!
i finally got on the forum!! Mouton Noir is planning to do the 2014 race, but not signed up yet. Some issues with a relative's health may be an issue. We will see...With respect to the tracker: everyone I know who watched the race unfold on YellowBrick LOVED it!!! Loved ones and close friends were greatly reassurred by seeing the positions. I used the Brick all the way to Alaska, and was glad to have the extra security that having positions available to others allowed. I checked the Yellowbrick site, and they now have a new model. Several actually. These can be rented or owned. They can be mounted above decks on a special fitting that releases easily, or apparently mounted below decks with an external Iridium antenna and external power supply. The internal battery still works and is fully charged if you need to get it out the door and into a liferaft or something. The web site is: http://www.yellowbrick-tracking.com/. The model we used in 2012 is apparently no longer used. The new model is very small, and allows text messages to be sent. My feeling, having looked at the YellwBrick website is that YB is VERY experienced, and a much better choice than Delorme. If the rules allow for both methods of position tracking, then there should be no issue. With respect to results in real time, since time and energy has been invested with YB already, then we presuimably have both a contact there and history with them that gives us much more leverage. Also, I bet they could run the last race positions through the processor to check algorithms, which we can then validate. I probably will have a (purchased) Yellowbrick aboard regardless, but I think that it would be responsible and appropriate for the fleet to carry them.

Mouton Noir is in Sven's right now getting the usual bottom issues addressed (if it ever warms up). Foxxfyre is for sale to the right person if anyone knows someone that would take care of her and sail her.

All the best,
Michael

Wylieguy
12-10-2013, 02:15 PM
As they say, "I don't have a dog in this fight," but have some thoughts anyway. I've sailed the PacCup with a YB beeping away in the bow seat. It made my wife, family, and friends comfortable to see that little dot move across the Pacific. Having a tracker wasn't a deal breaker on the home front, but the idea certainly helped. I'll be helping deliver a boat back from Oahu this August, and having that box beeping will be important on that trip, too.

I helped run several pre-2000 TransPacs and was Commodore for one that Michael sailed "Foxxfyer" in. I can remember tense times when boats disappeared from the VHF/HF world. It's my opinion that distance ocean races should take advantage of the latest technology, including Satellite tracking. Making ocean racing safer doesn't diminish the accomplishment of sailing, especially singlehanded, across oceans.
Pat Broderick, Commodore Emritus

BobJ
12-10-2013, 04:57 PM
I assume this was a live guess of leaders etc ? If so, how did you project forward to the finish line to guess who would win ? I once did a sheet for the Pac Cup and made the assumption that the average speed over the course to date would be maintained to the finish line. Did you do something more sophisticated ?

BB

Brian, I started with the reqular "who's ahead" formula: Difference in ratings X 2,120nm/3600, then dialed in the DTF. How YB used that for their tracking page calculations is above my pay grade, but they did confirm they used my method.

Regarding tracking, if position reporting is being turned over to a third party (YB or whomever) there should be no time penalties, since the device (or company) screwing up is beyond the skipper's control. There is NFW I'm going to spend thousands of dollars to do this race if my results (due to time penalties) are at the mercy of a third party and its equipment. Moreover, it fundamentally changes our race, and not for the better. Where's the self-sufficiency which has always been the hallmark of the race? "You're self-sufficient, but Mommy will always know where you are if you have an oopsie."

Finally, there are frequent references to the Pacific Cup. The Singlehanded TransPac is a very different race and I'd like to see it stay that way.

brianb
12-10-2013, 05:31 PM
Brian, I started with the reqular "who's ahead" formula: Difference in ratings X 2,120nm/3600, then dialed in the DTF. How YB used that for their tracking page calculations is above my pay grade, but they did confirm they used my method.

Regarding tracking, if position reporting is being turned over to a third party (YB or whomever) there should be no time penalties, since the device (or company) screwing up is beyond the skipper's control. There is NFW I'm going to spend thousands of dollars to do this race if my results (due to time penalties) are at the mercy of a third party and its equipment. Moreover, it fundamentally changes our race, and not for the better. Where's the self-sufficiency which has always been the hallmark of the race? "You're self-sufficient, but Mommy will always know where you are if you have an oopsie."

Finally, there are frequent references to the Pacific Cup. The Singlehanded TransPac is a very different race and I'd like to see it stay that way.

Tracking: Agree completely, there should be no reporting penalty as the RC has now assumed the responsibility of providing a working methodology. We will have to tighten the rules to make it clear racers are not allowed to take a tracker offline or obscure it's satellite view in some fashion. We should also be able to greatly reduce the role of comm vessel as they likely need only report other vessels positions to the fleet and not take position reports. If we have a missing vessel the Comm boat could attempt communication with same via relay, ssb, or VHF.

Pacific Cup: Yes, sailors have a tendency to discuss their experiences doing the Pacific crossing in the Pac Cup or other venues. I don't see much danger in that having a huge impact on the nature of this race. The nature of this race is largely dictated by the rules we have adopted, which are very similar to Pac Cup, only varying on the margins. Since their roots are international it tends to make all ocean races very similar in execution.



Thanks,
Brian

pogen
12-11-2013, 12:43 AM
Actually, if you decide to let the tracker do the daily reporting, with no other mandated position report, then that is a pretty big step. I don't believe I have heard of a long distance race that used only the tracker for position reports. I believe Transpac, Paccup, Cabo, Bermuda, etc. all work on the "racer calls in once per day, tracker is just backup and for landlubber entertainment" mode. Tracker reliability has gotten a lot better in the last 5 years or so.

Are you going to broadcast the noonsite tracker fix to the whole fleet once per day? Will tracker info be not out-of-bounds as far as being considered outside assistance? If a racer's tracker fails mid-race, what's the plan? He probably won't know unless he is informed somehow. And he can only be informed via satphone email or SSB, which he has to have on and tuned in to the right channel at some predictable time.

brianb
12-11-2013, 01:41 AM
In 2012 position reporting was mandatory but by any means. It was declared that the tracker was sufficient for daily check ins. Two boats, myself, and the Moore 24 used the tracker daily position reports. It worked well.

As I said earlier, the role of the comm boat will probably be reduced to just report tracker positions via an SSB broadcast. Of course there would be the usual chatter as well. Tracker data, delayed several hours, was open to all in the 2012 race.

As I said earlier, if a tracker fails the comm boat would broadcast that fact and try to establish communication via SSB, or VHF. Folks on land could send email to the vessel in question. There would be no penalty to the vessel as the tracker operation is a burden on the RC.

It is possible someone will fall off the radar screen due to communication breakdown. That is not new. Given boats have a tracker, an EPRIB, and a VHF at a minimum they are well covered.

Brian

Mewes
12-15-2013, 11:21 AM
Thanks for continuing this debate.

And I'm a stick in the md, really.

Having a functioning Communications Boat (team) keeps a focus on the fleet by this relay.

What was "sail to Hanalei" with a small list of equipment: EPIRB, raft...food, water....now puts a lot of pressure on the racer to pay THOUSANDS on electronic equipment.

I do not want to eliminate the "failure to report" penalty.

Essentially, what David said.

Lucie

brianb
12-15-2013, 05:22 PM
Thanks for continuing this debate.

And I'm a stick in the md, really.

Having a functioning Communications Boat (team) keeps a focus on the fleet by this relay.

What was "sail to Hanalei" with a small list of equipment: EPIRB, raft...food, water....now puts a lot of pressure on the racer to pay THOUSANDS on electronic equipment.

I do not want to eliminate the "failure to report" penalty.

Essentially, what David said.

Lucie

I disagee 100%. If we require tracking then the burden shifts to RC. These boats used to run to hawaii w.o. comm. penalty. Comm. is now rc responsibility

WBChristie
12-15-2013, 07:07 PM
Since I'm signed up my .02c is what Brian said. If trackers are mandated (hopefully not) no check ins by the racer (the tracker takes care of that)

solosailor
12-18-2013, 10:29 PM
I competed in what I recall was the last SHTP (2000) that had a check-in (via SSB or VHF w/relay) with no penalty, nor tracking. In the following races check-ins carried a penalty.

A tracker IS NOT a check-in device, unless the check-in is to see if the YellowBrick or such unit is working. A tracker is an entertainment tool for those ashore, not for the racers. It's a great tool and I'm not against the SHTP competitors carrying them but I'm very much against using them as a check-in tool. No other race uses them this way. All races that have a check-in requirement (which is all) need to do so via SSB or SatPhone.

So the decision needs to be made...... is the check-in a safety tool or not? If it is then a tracker does not meet the requirement. A check-in is just that, a competitor checking-in as a confirmation that all is well onboard and to report their position.

I was very disturbed to hear that the communications requirements were change last minute in the 2012 SHTP to allow the tracker to fulfill the check-in requirement even though it took no human intervention to complete this "check-in". I'm also against using a tracker to check-in for the same reason BobJ stated.


We will have to tighten the rules to make it clear racers are not allowed to take a tracker offline or obscure it's satellite view in some fashion. So there will be a penalty for the tracker NOT working and checking-in, not the person?? Getting kind of funny now folks. I personally know of several cases of teams intentionally taking their tracker below and burying it under gear or in aluminum foil for a portion or the entire race. I've also known of many tracker failures not due to cheating including once having sheered off the tracker antenna from the stern pulpit due to a flogging sheet after broaching.

To me getting rid of the tracker eliminates several problems regarding cheating and eliminates the prospect of someone cheating by going online anytime they want and viewing the fleet positions...... this is a major problem in other races. The overall winner of the Pac Cup was penalized right off the podium once they were caught.

Also, do people onshore really need to see where each competitor is every moment during the race? Isn't one or two positions reports per/24 hours enough? I've had numerous people tell me in the years since the trackers came on the market that they waste way to much time looking at the race website and it kind of takes away the excitement of waiting for the next day's position report to see the latest developments.

Greg

brianb
12-19-2013, 12:20 AM
Thanks Greg for the history. So we now have established precedence for check ins not required, check ins required, and tracker data serving as a check in.

Regards,
Brian

Ragnar
12-19-2013, 09:49 AM
FWIW, in our PSSA races, boats miss check-ins a few times a year. Sometimes it's because of safety that the DON'T check-in as they are dealing with boat handling matters in strong winds during the few minutes of our check-ins. Sometimes the skipper is resting/over sleeping. More often he's having radio or power issues. Since my involvement, no one who missed a check-in did so because they required assistance.

But what if someone misses multiple check-ins? This too has happened. It's always been because of onboard power or radio issues. Theoretically it could be because the skipper went overboard or is incapacitated to such as extent they can't reach their EPIRB. PSSA covers the former eventuality by mandating a PLB, and recommending that it be worn while on deck. The latter, while possible seems terribly remote. I'm reminded of a competitor in the '79 Bermuda 1-2 who was incapacitated for 3 days while he passed a stone. Then sailed into St. Georges a new man.

Stones aside, I don't see how check-ins can be about safety. Collecting and disseminating position data could be a reason, or for simple camaraderie. I assume the RC will be providing the once a day position data to the fleet. Tracking data has often been more accurate than skipper transmitted data. For camaraderie it's probably better to set up a daily non-mandatory SSB chat hour, sometime around beer o'clock.

pbryant
12-19-2013, 06:44 PM
For what it's worth, I have had a DL InReach velcroed to a bulkhead inside my cabin and it has been sending automatic position reports for the last 4 months every 4 hours when the boat isn't underway, and every 10 minutes when my SOG is over 2 knots. It hasn't yet missed a single position report from inside the cabin. It is kept charged through a 5 volt switching regulator that draws 0.1 amp from the boat's 12 volt supply. You can buy chargers that are a little less efficient for $10 at Radio Shack.

I plan on entering the race. I'm just waiting for the inspection results on my 53 year old Ariel, and overcoming my own reticence to drill 40 holes in my balsa cored deck - over which I will cry many tears - to install clothesline (lifeline) stanchions. I'm still looking for stanchion bases that I can attach to the hull instead that won't act like little sea anchors when she's heeled with her rail in the water (a normal underway attitude for my boat).

I always carry a PLB in a fannypack when I'm out. It never gets in the way and it seems like a good precaution. I have a strip of "supervelcro" on the top of my helmet to which I'd slap the PLB (if I'm bobbing in the water I won't be too fashion conscious) - I learned that trick from the Coasties. Besides the obvious need if you go overboard - you may not find the EPIRB among all the flotsam if you abandon after it gets kicked out of its holder. I suppose most of us wouldn't step into the liferaft until the last inch of the rail sinks below the surface. By then, the EPIRB may have drifted away. And having an active PLB in addition to an active EPIRB does say rather emphatically: "Yes, I really mean it. I'm in trouble here."

I don't want to debate over whether PLBs should be required. IMHO, it's a matter of personal choice and personal risk assessment (as should be lifelines).

However, I think the requirement to check in might prevent an unnecessary SAR mission if you're out there drifting around looking like your vessel is NUC ("not under command"). With the DL, I can send a text message saying: "I'm becalmed/beset by weather and hove to with a sea anchor" or whatever. The YB won't let me say that "I'm OK - my radio is dead but don't worry about me." If the Coasties show up way out at sea, they may order you off your boat so they don't have to come out again. You can read an account of that happening from the story of S/V Satori (http://www.westsail.org/satoristorm#evacuation) (the actual rescue depicted in The Perfect Storm). Being able to say: "I'm OK," may save you from being forcibly evicted from your vessel (and the taxpayers a load of cash).

The SPOT trackers will quit working about half way to Hawaii. Hawaii is outside their satellite footprint. SPOT is delusionally optimistic showing degraded service all the way to Hawaii.

I've looked at the YB depiction of the 2012 Transpac, and it's very nicely done. I personally have no problem with carrying both the DL and the YB just to get the nice record of the voyage.

WBChristie
12-20-2013, 09:45 AM
Boy I'm glad I'm not RC, it must be tough job trying to anticipate and make the best decisions for safety and practicability and keep everyone happy! :)
An addendum to my post above ... if trackers are mandated and used as check ins, in the event of a tracker going quiet perhaps there could be a protocol on contacting the boat whose tracker has gone silent ie, boat has ssb or has satphone or has DL or has SPOT...or a combination of those - call, text before rescue ..or something along those lines.

There really is no silver bullet. Whatever RC decides is fine with me.

SPOT does work out to Hawaii...I have followed boats in previous races that have carried SPOT to and from Hawaii.

Philpott
12-20-2013, 10:40 AM
Being on RC is not for the faint of heart.

pbryant
12-20-2013, 11:25 AM
SPOT does work out to Hawaii...I have followed boats in previous races that have carried SPOT to and from Hawaii.

Spot trackers use the Globalstar sat. constellation. Unlike its name, Globalstar coverage isn't global and is limited by the the location of downlink stations. While the Spot trackers may work in and near Hawaii, that area is outside the Globalstar service footprint: http://www.globalstar.com/en/index.php?cid=106&sidenav=232. Globalstar doesn't even claim "fringe" service in the area. Spot claims: "reduced or no coverage" in and near Hawaii. Here is their coverage map (identical to Globalstar's - just more optimistic) http://www.findmespot.ca/en/index.php?cid=109.

For some reason Spot believes the Globalstar satellites have a larger coverage area than Globalstar itself claims. Probably an edict from the Marketing department.

I wouldn't depend on Spot anywhere near Hawaii.

peter00
12-20-2013, 11:36 AM
I would be interested to hear from Rob Tryon concerning Dirk's (?) rescue in the last SHTP. As a participant I was aware that his SSB check-ins had stopped but not why. He failed to contact the CG on 2182 so set off his EPIRB. So far the YB played no role except to let people know the boat was still afloat but I don't know what the RC knew at this point. There can be no doubt that the YB was responsible for saving his boat and this raises the question of ones responsibility when abandoning your vessel. Many people feel strongly that you should sink the vessel when you abandon it so that it does not become a hazard to navigation. Would this responsibility be lessened if the position of the vessel could be broadcast? Would Dirk's situation and rescue have been different if he hadn't been in last position at the time of his rescue?
Personally I was opposed to the YB in 2012 for financial reasons but it brought so much pleasure to those people who had helped me participate that I'm very much in favor of a tracking system now. And it did save Dirks' boat.

brianb
12-21-2013, 09:27 PM
Boy I'm glad I'm not RC, it must be tough job trying to anticipate and make the best decisions for safety and practicability and keep everyone happy! :)
An addendum to my post above ... if trackers are mandated and used as check ins, in the event of a tracker going quiet perhaps there could be a protocol on contacting the boat whose tracker has gone silent ie, boat has ssb or has satphone or has DL or has SPOT...or a combination of those - call, text before rescue ..or something along those lines.

There really is no silver bullet. Whatever RC decides is fine with me.

SPOT does work out to Hawaii...I have followed boats in previous races that have carried SPOT to and from Hawaii.

I for one agree with your points and am proposing what I have outlined below. The committee will be discussing this further.

1. Tracker serves as check in and is mandatory. Yellow Brick is the current tracker of choice. Other means can also be used but are not mandatory. RC will confirm tracker operation prior to race start on each vessel.
2. A SSB and VHF check in period will be part of the event, two per day as in the past. During that period positions will be read to the fleet from the Comm vessel. Anyone could also contribute their position at this time. This would also serve as a period for general discussion.
3. Any vessel not showing up on the tracker will be flagged for hailing during this check in period. SSB and VHF will be used. The RC will attempt contact by email/sat phone if they are available on the vessel.
4. No penalty will be applied for not checking in because the RC's mandate of carrying a tracker will shift that responsibility to the RC. Racers should make a good faith effort to confirm their YB is working by monitoring the twice daily check in, checking email, sat phone, or text via sat phone, if available.
5. VHF, AIS (receive only), EPRIB, and Tracker are the required communication vehicles.

Note: YB can be used to flag an emergency as stated here. This provides two vehicles to flag a problem, one to the RC and others, and one to USCG via EPIRB:

"Each Yellowbrick has a little red button under a security cover. If during the hire the red button is held down for 5 seconds then the Yellowbrick will send a position report with a special flag, and our systems automatically send an alert message via SMS and email to those people you specified."

Have fun out there.
Brian

pogen
12-22-2013, 10:59 AM
Are you going to send a daily email with noonsite (or other 24 or 12 hr) positions to the fleet, derived from YB?

pbryant
12-22-2013, 05:18 PM
I think the right choice is to stick with the YB versus the DL.

Complexity and reliability are natural enemies. Double the flexibility/complexity of something - and you quadruple the likelihood of failure.

The Yellowbrick is less complex.

Lightspeed
12-22-2013, 09:54 PM
As one of the 2014 racers I have already expressed my vote for yellow brick. I do however think SSS should promote and insist as much as possible, shorthand and solo sailing safety. My suggestion is to error on the side of safety and require each racer to report into the RC within a reasonable (i.e. 6 , 12, or 24 hour) time frame.

In today’s world of technology, Lightspeed’s autopilot can out steer me and will most likely be on 24/7. Although I may be busy at an exact RC reporting hour, I would like RC and my family to know I am on Lightspeed and able to sail her within a reasonable time frame….Rick

Travieso
12-23-2013, 08:57 AM
Maybe we should refocus the discussion and try to converge on the 'goals' of the communication plan for the purpose of race management. The one that is a requirement and could result in penalties to competitors, and could trigger additional protocols. Everything else is at the discretion of the sailor as long as it doesn't provide a competitive advantage. If we can document this perhaps we can avoid all this rehashing every cycle.

Perhaps something simple like:
1. Each racer must report their 700 and 1900 positions within 30 mins of the report (730, 1930) through any of the means supported by the RC:
a. SSB/VHF report to comms boat (or relay through another competitor)
b. email directly to RC
c. voicemail through sat phone to RC
The RC will provide summary position report of previous checking prior to the next report via
a. SSB through comms boat
b. email blast to the fleet

It is then up to each skipper to decide what level of redundancy they would want to invest (in $$$ and ###) to fulfill that requirement.

2. For the purpose of entertainment and to support some CG requirements the RC will provide a YB tracker to each boat in the fleet. This information is not available to the racers, any racer discovered to have had access to this information through direct or indirect access will be automatically disqualified.

None of the above are safety considerations. Communication relies on our unreliable power systems. Making any determination of safety based on lack of communications is problematic. We have PLB and ePIRBS for that (and in most cases likely satphones which have independent power sources).

If skippers want to update their families hourly and set up expectations of any communications with them that is their (flawed) choice. Perhaps their safety contact for the race should be required at the skippers meeting so it is clear where the responsibilities of the RC end.

Travieso
12-23-2013, 09:28 AM
Maybe we should refocus the discussion and try to converge on the 'goals' of the communication plan for the purpose of race management. The one that is a requirement and could result in penalties to competitors, and could trigger additional protocols. Everything else is at the discretion of the sailor as long as it doesn't provide a competitive advantage. If we can document this perhaps we can avoid all this rehashing every cycle.

Perhaps something simple like:
1. Each racer must report their 700 and 1900 positions within 30 mins of the report (730, 1930) through any of the means supported by the RC:
a. SSB/VHF report to comms boat (or relay through another competitor)
b. email directly to RC
c. voicemail through sat phone to RC
The RC will provide summary position report of previous checking prior to the next report via
a. SSB through comms boat
b. email blast to the fleet

It is then up to each skipper to decide what level of redundancy they would want to invest (in $$$ and ###) to fulfill that requirement.

2. For the purpose of entertainment and to support some CG requirements the RC will provide a YB tracker to each boat in the fleet. This information is not available to the racers, any racer discovered to have had access to this information through direct or indirect access will be automatically disqualified.

None of the above are safety considerations. Communication relies on our unreliable power systems. Making any determination of safety based on lack of communications is problematic. We have PLB and ePIRBS for that (and in most cases likely satphones which have independent power sources).

If skippers want to update their families hourly and set up expectations of any communications with them that is their (flawed) choice. Perhaps their safety contact for the race should be required at the skippers meeting so it is clear where the responsibilities of the RC end.


Once we agree on the goals, we can discuss protocols, which might end up further influencing the requirements. Assuming we implement the two simple requirements above.

1. If a boat stays within the required check-in schedule, perfect, the RC can sleep.
2. ePIRB or PLB set, send help, RC doesn't sleep but at least knows what to do. Here is an interesting question, do you scramble immediately or wait until the next checkin cycle? I have been on boats in more than one occasion where an ePIRB is innadvertedly activated.
3. A boat misses check-ins for more than a day without reporting any problems, but YB track is active and reasonable (i.e. boat isn't going on circles or pointed to Japan or Antartica). Possible power failure on board, possible incapacitation of skipper (or loss of skipper overboard) with autopilot engaged and inability to set ePIRB. I suggest nothing is done until the TB track becomes questionable, at which point a close competitor could be diverted to investigate.
4. A boat misses check-ins for more than a day and YB stops at the same time and no ePIRB or PLB signal. As other have mentioned the possibility of loosing both pieces of communication is real. A big broach could wash out the YB and cause some water intrusion that knocks out power. A lot of people don't sleep for a long time.

See how quickly this turned to a safety discussion... SOS is the primary emergency method if communication is available. EPIRB, PLB are the main emergency methods independent of communications. YB can provide a secondary emergency notification in the case of failure of communication or skipper incapacitation, though its a flawed method.

I think this is a pretty solid fabric of safety for a single handed voyage. Yes, it doesn't guarantee your safe arrival to Kauai, but you are sailing solo to Hawaii...

Case 4 above is the more problematic. I think for this the RC should decide on a protocol and have it clearly documented in the Race Instructions and communicated with skipper (and possibly their emergency contact).

If I were to go, I will make sure a PLB is permanently attached to my person. Period.

peter00
12-23-2013, 10:34 AM
I'll just relay a humorous little story to illustrate what can go wrong. I was running a tug on BC's central coast. The owner had, previous to employing me, purchased a used EPIRB. Depending on who you believe he had either failed to re-register it or the re-registration process failed. One day in the course of our work my deckhand inadvertently bumped the EPIRB and set it off. Soon after I was contacted by the CG and instructed to begin a search for the vessel in distress. We then spent an interesting couple of hours searching for ourselves. There is a lesson in there somewhere.

brianb
12-23-2013, 10:55 AM
Once we agree on the goals, we can discuss protocols, which might end up further influencing the requirements. Assuming we implement the two simple requirements above.

1. If a boat stays within the required check-in schedule, perfect, the RC can sleep.
2. ePIRB or PLB set, send help, RC doesn't sleep but at least knows what to do. Here is an interesting question, do you scramble immediately or wait until the next checkin cycle? I have been on boats in more than one occasion where an ePIRB is innadvertedly activated.
3. A boat misses check-ins for more than a day without reporting any problems, but YB track is active and reasonable (i.e. boat isn't going on circles or pointed to Japan or Antartica). Possible power failure on board, possible incapacitation of skipper (or loss of skipper overboard) with autopilot engaged and inability to set ePIRB. I suggest nothing is done until the TB track becomes questionable, at which point a close competitor could be diverted to investigate.
4. A boat misses check-ins for more than a day and YB stops at the same time and no ePIRB or PLB signal. As other have mentioned the possibility of loosing both pieces of communication is real. A big broach could wash out the YB and cause some water intrusion that knocks out power. A lot of people don't sleep for a long time.

See how quickly this turned to a safety discussion... SOS is the primary emergency method if communication is available. EPIRB, PLB are the main emergency methods independent of communications. YB can provide a secondary emergency notification in the case of failure of communication or skipper incapacitation, though its a flawed method.

I think this is a pretty solid fabric of safety for a single handed voyage. Yes, it doesn't guarantee your safe arrival to Kauai, but you are sailing solo to Hawaii...

Case 4 above is the more problematic. I think for this the RC should decide on a protocol and have it clearly documented in the Race Instructions and communicated with skipper (and possibly their emergency contact).

If I were to go, I will make sure a PLB is permanently attached to my person. Period.

Good points all, and all are under consideration by the RC. I too carry a PLB on my person, was really happy with it's existence and the attached tether, when I found myself in the water on a knock down in 2012. I wonder at times why this isn't preferred in an event of this type ?

Brian

brianb
12-23-2013, 04:19 PM
Thanks all for the continued input. The RC will be digesting the responses and reach a conclusion after Christmas. Shortly there after the Comm Plan will be posted to the SHTP site.

I have made some adjustments to my previous list to add a means of human, live check in that does not add to the equipment requirements. Changes are in item 4. The intent is to confirm a human is still aboard the vessel while maintaining the values of an automatic, hands off tracking scheme for followers and USCG consumption.

1. Tracker serves as check in and is mandatory to carry and not impede operation. Yellow Brick is the current tracker of choice. Other means can also be used but are not mandatory. RC will confirm tracker operation prior to race start on each vessel.
2. An SSB and VHF check in period will be part of the event, two per day as in the past. During that period positions will be read to the fleet from the Comm vessel. Anyone could also contribute their position at this time. This would also serve as a period for general discussion.
3. Any vessel not showing up on the tracker will be flagged for hailing during this check in period. SSB and VHF will be used. The RC will attempt contact by email/sat phone if they are available on the vessel.
4. Racers should make a good faith effort to confirm their YB is working by monitoring the twice daily check in, checking email, sat phone, or text via sat phone, if available. A once daily (or twice daily-TBD) will be mandatory using the YB's available CALL button. The user will have to check in by depressing this button within a daily time window, say from 0900 to 1800 PSDT. This will result in a message being sent to the RC and forwarded to the comm boat. Absent this check in a daily time penalty (TBD) will be assessed. Racers should make a good faith effort to confirm their YB is working by monitoring the twice daily check in, checking email, sat phone, or text via sat phone, if available.
5. VHF, AIS (receive only), EPRIB, and Tracker are the required communication vehicles.

Travieso
12-23-2013, 05:34 PM
Good points all, and all are under consideration by the RC. I too carry a PLB on my person, was really happy with it's existence and the attached tether, when I found myself in the water on a knock down in 2012. I wonder at times why this isn't preferred in an event of this type ?

Brian

And I don't think we should make them wear it. Perhaps some like to sail in their natural suit once they hit the tropics. But also they (nor their families) should expect the RC or CG to magically find them if they fall overboard or know that they are incapacitated in need of emergency assistance. Not all of us build bunkers in their backyards.

pbryant
12-23-2013, 07:54 PM
Good points all, and all are under consideration by the RC. I too carry a PLB on my person, was really happy with it's existence and the attached tether, when I found myself in the water on a knock down in 2012. I wonder at times why this isn't preferred in an event of this type ?

Brian

I also carry a PLB on my person, but they aren't a replacement for an EPIRB because they aren't required to be buoyant (in fact many that do float only float upside down turning the antenna into a mini keel) and the battery life requirement is half that of an EPIRB. Of course, in the cold waters here, it's a race between which dies first: me or the PLB battery - so 24 hours is more than enough.

I have velcro glued to the bottom of the PLB and the top of my helmet to get around the upside down flotation issue.

I really don't agree that PLBs should be required in place of EPIRBs, or required at all. PLBs are only useful if they are carried on your person and used to locate a person gone overboard. AIS SARTs are better for that purpose because they can be located by anyone with an AIS receiver (which boats in the race will presumably have). I also have an AIS SART in my "guest" PFD for passengers when I have them aboard, and put I it on my own PFD when I'm single handed - but I wouldn't advocate requiring them for the race. Wearing the PLB/AIS SART doesn't distract me, but I can easily imagine how it would someone else. Requiring technology to be worn that other people may not feel comfortable with just distracts skippers from sailing and potentially detracts from safety because it consumes funds that skippers could otherwise use to make their vessel more seaworthy. I assume most of us don't have infinite funds available.

As far as I'm concerned, it's just like the requirement for lifelines: if you can demonstrate that you have a solid jackline system and you never ever leave the cabin without being clipped into it, that the jackline system is designed to use the forward motion of the boat to bring you back aboard, and the lifeline stanchions defeat that process while steel lines can potentially saw through your tether; then they make sailing the vessel more complicated and less safe than not having them. It's kinda like requiring motorcyclists to wear seat belts. It solves one problem while creating a bigger one.

Mewes
12-25-2013, 07:46 PM
Just so we don't jump too far ahead of ourselves, I want to make clear that discussion of the uses of on-board tracking systems has illuminated many aspects which might have been missed.

Brian has listed some thoughts of tracker uses, including that using the services of Yellow Brick appears to outweigh benefits of purchasing DeLorme equipment and their services for the race.

A discussion of pros and cons of SSB, SatPhone, email/text checking into a Communications Boat daily during the race has also occurred. Many of the philosophical tenets of sailing in the Singlehanded TransPac (alone, preparedness, resourcefulness, skill, etc.) have come into this discussion as well.

As it stands, the SSS Board of Directors decided for the good of the Race that each entered yacht should be equipped with a tracking device.

The Race Rules and Conditions Section 4.35 Minimum Equipment requires equipment by which each racer can communicate with the Race Committee through a Communications Boat.

The TransPac Communications Plan will be published just prior to the Race Start June 28.

Merry Christmas from La Paz BCS Mexico,

Ben & Lucie Mewes

solosailor
12-26-2013, 08:36 PM
So we now have established precedence for check ins not required, check ins required, and tracker data serving as a check in. Actually the "precedence" for a tracker data serving as check-in was done by a single SHTP RC as I recall without the backing of the SSS Safety Committee or board and a very poor decision. It also resulted in race results that were not fair as several boats didn't check-in but their "tracker did" so they didn't accrue a time penalty as they should have per the rules.


As it stands, the SSS Board of Directors decided for the good of the Race that each entered yacht should be equipped with a tracking device. That's great for the entertainment of the people on shore. But again, an automated tracking device IS NOT a check-in by a competitor. So either have check-ins or don't but relying on an automated device is a poor excuse and NOT a check-in by a human.

There is NO OTHER Hawaii or Mexico race that uses a tracker for check-in, period. Why would anyone consider an automated device a legitimate check-in? Please, tell me how this can even be discussed?

brianb
12-26-2013, 09:54 PM
"boats didn't check-in but their "tracker did" so they didn't accrue a time penalty as they should have per the rules." - not true. The RC decreed that the tracker constituted a check in, hence it was a legitimate check in, by definition of the RC. Additionally a vote was taken by the racers in 2012 and they all concurred.

solosailor
12-27-2013, 01:00 AM
The RC decreed that the tracker constituted a check in, hence it was a legitimate check in, by definition of the RC. Additionally a vote was taken by the racers in 2012 and they all concurred.I'm more than aware that the hard work put in over the years by SSS officers and SSS Safety Committees to write the rules were basically disregarded last minute by the SHTP RC in 2012. I've never heard of racers getting a vote to override the rules put in place by the Safety/Rules Committee.

You can call it what you want but a tracker reporting it's position is just that..... a tracker reporting a position, not a check-in by a competitor. If you want to have the tracker reports boats positions, fine. But don't call it a check-in because it's NOT in anyway a human doing so. Please enlighten me what steps a human has to do to check-in using an automated position reporting device? None, so stop calling it a check-in. Calling it a position report would be correct, but it's in no way a check-in.

For the record I'm fine with no check-ins and no penalty (would prefer it that way) as well as having a tracker onboard for the entertainment of the folks ashore.

BobJ
12-27-2013, 01:09 AM
Apparently there's a button you can push on the thing that sends an "I'm okay" signal - just like they have in retirement homes. If you forget to push it (or it isn't working) a nurse aid shows up after awhile.

solosailor
12-27-2013, 09:53 AM
Apparently there's a button you can push on the thing that sends an "I'm okay" signalWell if that's that the case and the tracker has a manual button the competitor had to press to report their position then it could actually be a valid check-in........ anything automated is not.

brianb
12-27-2013, 10:26 AM
Well if that's that the case and the tracker has a manual button the competitor had to press to report their position then it could actually be a valid check-in........ anything automated is not.

Precisely, as I have suggested in earlier posts, we could take advantage of the "things" (YB) manual notification as a dead man switch. This is a question under consideration by the RC. I have also asked YB to clarify the operation just to make sure there is no misunderstanding. Their literature states that we can designate the nature of the message sent to the listed receivers. Example, it could launch a SAR, or could simply be a location report manually initiated, just indicating all was OK. Obviously a SAR would only be initiated by an EPIRB or other request from the skipper, not the YB. The YB would be used to indicate all is well aboard.

BobJ
12-27-2013, 02:03 PM
I think the normal installation is to have one pull string by the head (long enough to reach the cabin sole) and one pull string by the bunk.

Seriously, I like the idea of a satphone "net" (via Skype or conference call) so non-SSB equipped boats can still talk to the group. The net was a big part of the experience in the SHTP's I did. Mandating YB's would cause fewer boats to take SSB's (as happened in 2012) - so is satphone conferencing a possibility?

brianb
12-27-2013, 07:44 PM
I think the normal installation is to have one pull string by the head (long enough to reach the cabin sole) and one pull string by the bunk.

Seriously, I like the idea of a satphone "net" (via Skype or conference call) so non-SSB equipped boats can still talk to the group. The net was a big part of the experience in the SHTP's I did. Mandating YB's would cause fewer boats to take SSB's (as happened in 2012) - so is satphone conferencing a possibility?

I like the sat phone net as well. As you suggested, so far, the cost looks prohibitive. The SKYPE guys can tell when a Sat Phone is being called and charge a premium. However, they may not do the same when a Sat phone calls a SKYPE number, which would allow a conference all. I am checking on that. I suspect the only way to make this fly at no more cost than the sat phone call basic rate is to have someone that has a conference number on their normal phone. If I still worked at a large firm this would have been trivial at no additional cost on the companies bulk rate conference system.

pogen
12-27-2013, 08:57 PM
To the RC:

Please don't issue the comms plan "just before" the race start. Please give the racers plenty of time to make a considered decision about how they choose to comply with the requirements, get their gear in place and get it tested.

Secondly, as Brian has said, a phone conference setup where one dial in to a common nummber/access code should be very easy to get, in my former job we had several such numbers available to us. Routine group phone conferences could be held using this service

White Lion http://www.uswhitelion.com/

While phone-in/web/video can be done well and cheaply using

GoToMeeting http://www.gotomeeting.com

I think it should be quite possible to sort out a system where satphone participants can call to a shoreside number once per day and have a N-way conference call. Maybe even bridge this to SSB somehow. And further, we could record this daily and post the audio track if we wished up on or site, or YouTube etc.