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WBChristie
12-26-2013, 04:12 PM
From what I understand, transmissions were not sealed in the 2012 race? Since it is a race, I think transmissions should be sealed....what say you?

brianb
12-27-2013, 11:03 PM
Yes, 2012 the props were not strapped. A few questions about this practice.

I assume this is to prevent cheating ? What about other means of cheating, is there anything physically done to prevent ?

Are there any safety issues, for example light winds and strong tides at the start and getting past lands end ?

Has the RC ever stated penalties for use of the engine to avoid an obstruction, other than disqualification ? Or has there ever been a penalty or waiver issued ?

Many transmissions require shifting to reverse when in motion, but then need to be shifted to neutral for battery charging. Who has the expertise to seal a transmission that allows putting it in reverse/neutral without breaking the seal ?

Some feathering props require prop motion to feather, how does the sealing process effect these ?

Is the prop banded ? and if so is there a known band that will break without either coming off accidentally or fouling the prop ? Is a diver required to band ?

On the Hanalei end what is the inspection process ?

Is it the expectation that all boats can anchor without use of the prop ? Is it the expectation that a tow boat will be available in Hanalei (it wasn't in 2012 for many finishers).

Thanks,
Brian

pogen
12-27-2013, 11:27 PM
I believe this is an anti cheating measure. I don't know that any other race in recent memory has done this. I think it is a bit of an archaic holdover from past practice. I doubt very much that Bermuda 1-2 etc. do this any longer.

BobJ
12-27-2013, 11:41 PM
Prior to 2012 it was always done, seemingly without difficulty. It adds credibility/prestige to the race, especially as a singlehanded race.

I recall a couple of boats needing to engage their engines for safety reasons. One went back and restarted (after having a new seal applied) and the other provided adequate explanation and no penalty was given.

The (thin) safety wire and seal can be applied either to the gearshift or the shaft itself. In addition, typical practice is to have a diver put a rubber band on the prop - most of us have our hulls wiped at CYC anyway - so if you need to leave the engine in neutral (vs. reverse) for charging batteries, the prop will stay closed. I don't know what boats with feathering props do, but it never seemed to be a problem.

In 2012 you had both the towboat screwup and the greeter boat screwup. That would have made sealing shafts difficult, but with proper planning those circumstances should not recur. The first task of the greeter is to check the safety wire and seal to make sure it isn't broken. Then the engine can be started and preparations made to anchor. Just part of the deal and most skippers in past years have supported the requirement.

Here's 2008 Race Chair Synthia checking DOGBARK's seal before helping Al anchor and serving up his drink of choice (more great SHTP traditions!)

http://www.norcalsailing.com/ssstpac-earlyfinish.video.html

Synthia added a finishing feature of her own: A cool, moist, magnolia-scented wash cloth for the skipper!

.

Wylieguy
12-28-2013, 11:46 AM
Most "rules" in the SSS have a boat name attached to them. Strapping props/transmissions for the TransPac is no exception. A 2nd reason was to "legitimize" the race in hopes of attracting a larger number of entries. Pat

Philpott
12-28-2013, 03:11 PM
My understanding of the reason for the waiver in the 2012 race was some confusion at the start on the part of the Corinthian yacht Club's understanding of liability issues re towing at the start. In previous years CYC towed Transpac boats out for the start of the race. However in 2012 no one who knew this practice was present at the start and so the Club balked at doing so. Max Crittenden can address this authoritatively (as in many things). Further, everyone agreed that all 2012 participants shared the Corinthian spirit, evidenced later by the crowd sourcing to save Dirk's boat.

WBChristie
12-28-2013, 05:04 PM
The Volvo ocean race still does this.
http://www.volvooceanrace.com/static/assets/content/media/files/m11354_general-leg-sis-amendment-1.pdf pg 5

Agree that the Corinthian spirit is a huge part of this race and part of the attraction for me. But, since we pay and it is a race, that part of it should be handled in a "racelike manner". It does not have to impinge on the Corinthian spirit, its just another rule like checking in or having certain equipment. Otherwise we should just get together with no formal race rules and sail to Hawaii.

I mean no disrespect.

brianb
12-28-2013, 10:37 PM
Per my question: Many transmissions require shifting to reverse when in motion, but then need to be shifted to neutral for battery charging. Who has the expertise to seal a transmission that allows putting it in reverse/neutral without breaking the seal ?

Who did this work in the past and what tools/expertise are required ? Is there a volunteer that is familiar with sealing a transmission that won't cause damage if the prop shaft is engaged ? Someone in the club must know ?

Is the method of sealing unique, or can it be copied with some common items carried aboard somewhere down the course ?

Regarding outboard motors, how are they sealed ? Who is the expert ?

Brian

brianb
12-28-2013, 11:17 PM
The Volvo ocean race still does this.
http://www.volvooceanrace.com/static/assets/content/media/files/m11354_general-leg-sis-amendment-1.pdf pg 5

Agree that the Corinthian spirit is a huge part of this race and part of the attraction for me. But, since we pay and it is a race, that part of it should be handled in a "racelike manner". It does not have to impinge on the Corinthian spirit, its just another rule like checking in or having certain equipment. Otherwise we should just get together with no formal race rules and sail to Hawaii.

I mean no disrespect.

I read through the Volvo rules and also the Bermuda 1/2. The former rules are substantial ! I guess when that much money is involved you need to really tighten things up. They even seal mobile phones. Bermuda 1/2, not so much, they don't seem to seal engines or cell phones. The same with PSSA races, like Guadalupe race. Kind of a mixed bag.

Volvo calls out procedures for seal removal and then recording, via a gps position photo, where seals were removed and where they were reapplied. Competitors are given multiple seals with special numbered tags. I suppose this is to allow a means of estimating the amount redress in case a seal is removed. Pretty detailed.

BobJ
12-29-2013, 09:20 AM
The title of this thread is a misnomer - you actually seal the shaft, or the shift lever in the correct direction. On my boat it was easier for them to seal the shift lever, which could then be moved between Reverse and Neutral. It would break the seal if it was moved to Forward. If the shaft itself was sealed, where movement of the shaft might break the seal, some skippers also clamped two pairs of vice grips (or similar) directly on the shaft and against the hull or structure, so the shaft wouldn't turn. In 2008, I recall Synthia also took a picture of each finished seal in case she needed it later - why don't you ask if she still has those pictures and then you'll have a representative sample?

The club owns a bunch of wires, seals, and the unique stamp that marks the lead seal. (That's how you know it wasn't replaced during the race.) I don't know what they've done with outboards, but on all but the smallest ones you could seal the shift lever like they did on my boat.

For right now, all you need to do is cut/paste Section 7 back into the RR&C's (see 2010's RR&C's) and the rest will be done when the time comes. Also, there will be several long-timers at the CYC looking for something to help with. Most or all on the SSS safety committee are familiar with this . . .

Ragnar
12-29-2013, 01:05 PM
I read through the Volvo rules and also the Bermuda 1/2. The former rules are substantial ! I guess when that much money is involved you need to really tighten things up. They even seal mobile phones. Bermuda 1/2, not so much, they don't seem to seal engines or cell phones. The same with PSSA races, like Guadalupe race. Kind of a mixed bag.

Volvo calls out procedures for seal removal and then recording, via a gps position photo, where seals were removed and where they were reapplied. Competitors are given multiple seals with special numbered tags. I suppose this is to allow a means of estimating the amount redress in case a seal is removed. Pretty detailed.

PSSA follows the corinthian spirit. Most of our races include skippers taking their own finish times (due to our finish locations), so to seal shafts runs counter to our culture. Skippers will just be cheating themselves by using the engine. We also have rules against sponsorship.

That said, cheating has happened, even in a race around the world. Richard Konkolski in the 82-83 BOC was suspected of motoring in the doldrums, then again in the '86 BOC. He was protested on the basis of his outsized daily runs in the doldrums and a protest meeting was held in Cape Town - hang in here, there is a point to all this. From Hal Roth's notes of the Protest Hearing:

"Jean Luc and I were both convinced that Konkolski used his engine in the doldrums, and we counted on the race committee's engine seals to convict him. We were both furious when we found that the committee had simply put a wire with a seal on the engine gearshift lever. To defeat the seal, you merely had to disconnect the gearshift lever from the engine, and shift gears with a pair of pliers."

The protest was thrown out. Most felt Konkolski should have been thrown out, but they decided there was not enough proof.

I have no answers. Shafts or levers were not sealed in 2012, and skippers using them for propulsion never crossed my mind. I am surprised that a crewed race would require shaft seals, but maybe it's sponsorship money that applies such pressure to win & keep crew members quiet? The duty of the RC is to run a fair race, so unless it's onerous, they should err on the side of fairness. It turns my stomach, though. Ironic that the race starts at the Corinthian YC. I would kill the seals if skippers were expected to take their own finish times.

WBChristie
12-29-2013, 06:36 PM
Yeah, the whole thing is rather distasteful isn't it? I feel dirty for bringing it up, but it is worth talking about in the interest of having a fair race.
I agree that if someone cheats, its on them and they have to live with their conscience or lack thereof.

brianb
12-29-2013, 09:27 PM
Yeah, the whole thing is rather distasteful isn't it? I feel dirty for bringing it up, but it is worth talking about in the interest of having a fair race.
I agree that if someone cheats, its on them and they have to live with their conscience or lack thereof.

Absolutely fitting to have this discussion and it would have been brought up shortly by me. Thanks for starting the thread.

And thanks to Ragnar for the historical data and the description of the means of defeating the seals. My Hurst transmission would make this easy, as the lever comes right off.

peter00
12-30-2013, 08:26 PM
If it came to a vote, I would vote against wiring the transmissions or whatever. It doesn't take a ton of imagination to envisage a situation where the people we're sailing against would suddenly be asked/required to give up the race and try to save our life. Therefore I would like to think we could trust them. "The tragedy of being honest is that you think everyone else is honest. The tragedy of being dishonest is that you think everyone else is dishonest"

sleddog
12-31-2013, 09:16 AM
Sealed transmissions have multiple consequences. CYC has done a magnificent job in the past. But it remains onerous for them to individually tow out the majority of the SHTP fleet to the starting area.

The breeze is often light before the starting sequences at CYC. Out-of towners and early tow outs may under estimate the strength of tidal current in Raccoon Straits. More than one SHTP starter has found himself flushed down current towards Ayala Cove and late for the start, from which they never recover in the building current.

The 2014 SHTP start is scheduled for near max flood. Competitors could expect 2 knots or more of flooding (adverse) tide in portions of Raccoon Strait and south and west of the start area.

If transmissions were unsealed, this would allow starters to motor or sail from CYC and remain in the vicinity of the start line without danger of being flushed to East Jesus. If that were the case, a reminder to all that the racing rules allow motoring in gear until your division's preparatory signal, 4 minutes before your division's start. At which time all engines must be out of gear for the duration of the race.

My 2 cents: Leave gear shifts and shafts unsealed for those with engines. Safety and logistically wise, pre and post race, I believe it is a no brainer. At Hanalei, with its short downwind runway and inspectors not always able to readily board, having an (unwired) engine may someday assist those unable to sail off a lee shore or into the anchorage.

Maybe this topic is moot. Current published NOR and RRC do not require sealing shafts and gear shifts.

sleddog, 1978 and 2008 SHTP (and towboat skipper.)

Steevee
01-02-2014, 09:55 AM
I'm new to this forum and I stumbled across this thread thinking it was a technical one, not how to confirm whether competitors motored during the SHTP. I had no idea. Call me naive. My only experience with racing is up here on Humboldt Bay and all our races work on the honor system, even the single handed ones.
I know I'm in the company of sailors who are much more experienced than me on this forum but I'll give my two cents anyway.
I agree with WBChristie. The dream of competing in the SHTP for me is the reward of self realization, the challenge of digging down deep inside and finding the fortitude to overcome "inner demons" in the face of the broken equipment, lack of sleep, Mother Nature, and all while competing with like minded sailors trying to finish first with honor.
Please tell me this isn't true that single handed sailors cheat. Tell me they're self reliant, confident and honorable.
-Steve Ludwig

Harrier
01-02-2014, 10:03 AM
In spite of what Bob Johnson posted, props were not "always sealed prior to 2012". First "sealings" were done sometime in
the 1990"s. Supposedly in an (unsuccessful) attempt to entice French participation. They supposedly turned up their collective
noses when they learned that our shafts had never been sealed. I suspect they have a lot of cheating?? So they turned to this.

Steevee
01-02-2014, 10:44 AM
I suppose you could get around this whole issue by only allowing sailboats without motors to compete. Start the race at slack tide right before an ebb. It would limit the size of boats used and it may attract a whole new breed of , or should I say "old" breed of sailor. I'm totally game for something like that.
Something to think about for future races and another thread. I apologize for getting off subject.

BobJ
01-02-2014, 10:45 AM
Ken, it's getting to where you are the only SHTP vet who posts here and who knows the history going farther back - I posted what I knew.

I became aware of the SHTP in about 2001 and started attending the seminars in 2003 (leading up to the 2004 race). When I was finally able to cross the starting line in 2006 it was a huge deal for me and a great experience - a high point of my life. I have savored all the traditions which appeared to be part of the race. This included for me the novelty of having the shafts sealed and being towed out of the harbor, with friends and family watching. (It had little to do with the risk of cheating.) SHTP tradition for me also included being able to participate in SSB roll calls with a group of skippers I barely knew, many of whom would be friends by the time I reached Kauai. I count you as one of them. I realize there were no check-ins prior to 2002 but they were a big part of the experience in the races I did, and they will go away as trackers take over position reporting and make SSB's unnecessary.

In planning the 2010 race I tried to retain as many of the traditions as possible. I was disappointed to see some of them lost in 2012. It appears more will be lost in 2014 - it's the age we live in I guess.

I have a row of brass SHTP participant plates going down RAG's main bulkhead - two as a racer and two from being on R/C - not nearly as long a row as yours. Remember how getting the plastic one in 2004 bugged you? There will be a lot of "plastic" ones from now on - but not on my boat.

Philpott
01-02-2014, 11:41 AM
Plastic participants plates???!!! That's just wrong. Surely we can do better than that! All that money spent on shirts that no one collects? Those expensive dinners at Chez Panisse? (Oh, alright I made that up). That brass participant plate would probably increase the value of the boat upon resale, enabling the seller to recoup part of the money spent on the yellow bricks.

Harrier
01-02-2014, 12:03 PM
Bob
I wasn't trying to needle you...just adding some memory to the discussion. Even after the shafts were sealed, I tried to sail
out. Of course, the positioning in the Corinthian dock area sometimes made that too time consuming. I do remember getting
stuck in the mud, nearby and required the busy tug to pull me off (but not toward the finish!). I really see no point in it, being
as we are all "corinthian" in this endeavor. And you were absolutely correct in pointing out the "friendship" aspects of the race.
And even when most entries had SSB, the check ins were voluntary and added greatly to the participants' enjoyment. The
addition of the "race ruining" penalty for non-check in almost got me to quit! IT ADDS NOTHING TO SAFETY!!! That's what the
requiered EPIRB and LIFERAFT and ROCKETS are for. In my old wooden sloop, I went to Fr Polynesia and back via HI without
those things...safely too...I think. And 3 more passages to HI and back, to boot. Just another story. The only really safe thing
to do is: STAY HOME. After reading the latest list of "hoops" for 2014, I'm likely to do just that....

BobJ
01-02-2014, 12:27 PM
After getting towed out in 2008, I sailed back into the CYC basin and around among the docks. The family wondered if I was having second thoughts but I was just messing around - there was a lot of time before the start. The CYC towing crew finally yelled at me so I headed back out.

Ragnar
01-02-2014, 07:08 PM
Please tell me this isn't true that single handed sailors cheat. Tell me they're self reliant, confident and honorable.
-Steve Ludwig

Singlehanded sailors don't cheat. Pathetic cowards cheat.

I'm not aware of anyone cheating other than Richard Konkolski, a Cechoslavokian 27 years ago. He actually told Hal Roth over the radio after being told he was being protested: "You'll never prove anything." Pathetic.

Singlehanded sailors are self reliant by definition. All the ones I've met have been honorable. To live an honorable life is the whole point, isn't it?

Confident? Perhaps you can judge when you get to Hanalei!

Steevee
01-02-2014, 08:09 PM
Thanks Ragnar for your response. My question was a bit dramatic to be sarcastic. I know you all would answer appropriately to those questions.
I had no idea the sealing of engines was done. Even the person who started this thread and posed the question of sealing the engines later regretted it with their statement that they feel dirty for bringing it up and that those who cheat have to live with themselves (I'm paraphrasing here). I agree with WBChristie's latter comment.
Anyway, Rangnar you are one of my inspirations for wanting to do this race when I saw Slacker's placing in the 2012 SHTP. Other inspirations have been Ronnie Simpson, who persevered and hand steered for days when his batteries lost power. Then there's Ruben Gabriel, who's boat was demasted, but did that stop him? No! he jury rigged it and continued on to finish. Those are the examples of single handed sailors who demonstrated seamanship, guts and honor. It is my dream to participate in this race not this year but 2016. I hope it remains true to its beginnings because that's what makes it special. I hope the RC doesn't try to make the SHTP into something it's not. It's a race of sailors who sail what they got, rely on their seamanship, have no expectations of glory (other than personal) and have no sponsors to help them reach the starting line.

BobJ
01-03-2014, 09:34 AM
I hope it remains true to its beginnings because that's what makes it special. I hope the RC doesn't try to make the SHTP into something it's not. It's a race of sailors who sail what they got, rely on their seamanship, have no expectations of glory (other than personal) and have no sponsors to help them reach the starting line.

Couldn't have said it better - thanks!

Critter
01-03-2014, 04:35 PM
It's a race of sailors who sail what they got, rely on their seamanship, have no expectations of glory (other than personal) and have no sponsors to help them reach the starting line.
Well, of course, some entrants have had sponsors. We take it all in stride.

brianb
01-03-2014, 09:04 PM
Ken, it's getting to where you are the only SHTP vet who posts here and who knows the history going farther back - I posted what I knew.


In planning the 2010 race I tried to retain as many of the traditions as possible. I was disappointed to see some of them lost in 2012. It appears more will be lost in 2014 - it's the age we live in I guess.

I have a row of brass SHTP participant plates going down RAG's main bulkhead - two as a racer and two from being on R/C - not nearly as long a row as yours. Remember how getting the plastic one in 2004 bugged you? There will be a lot of "plastic" ones from now on - but not on my boat.

It is apparent that the RC's plans for 2014 have been completely unmasked !
I would like to apologize in advance for the PLASTIC nature of 2014 SHTP.

Mewes
01-06-2014, 01:05 PM
I find that most aspects of the 2012 race diverged from all prior years!

Sealing the propeller shafts has never presented any difficulty.

I know of no new who has carried the weight of an outboard. The ship them for arrival!

More. Later.

Ragnar
01-06-2014, 08:24 PM
I know of no new who has carried the weight of an outboard. The ship them for arrival!.

Right, and I'm sure everyone had their PHRF rating adjusted for having no engine aboard.

Right???

brianb
01-06-2014, 09:36 PM
Interesting observation. The ratings equations don't reflect a correction for engine removal. This is a hole worth investigating.

tiger beetle
01-07-2014, 12:40 PM
Per my question: Many transmissions require shifting to reverse when in motion, but then need to be shifted to neutral for battery charging. Who has the expertise to seal a transmission that allows putting it in reverse/neutral without breaking the seal ?

Who did this work in the past and what tools/expertise are required ? Is there a volunteer that is familiar with sealing a transmission that won't cause damage if the prop shaft is engaged ? Someone in the club must know ?

Is the method of sealing unique, or can it be copied with some common items carried aboard somewhere down the course ?

Regarding outboard motors, how are they sealed ? Who is the expert ?

Brian

Hi Brian -

I have a Hurth transmission that is locked in reverse for sailing to prevent free-wheeling of the prop (which destroys the transmission eventually), and placed in neutral for charging. My Newport 33 and my N/M 45 both have a Hurth.

Solution is simple: a strap wrench placed on the shaft-transmission coupling, and the handle of the strap wrench is lashed to a small block of wood (in my case) epoxied to a bit of the engine bed stringeer. Worked super. I also placed a Harken fast-pin at the transmission shift lever, to prevent me from accidentally shifting the transmission into forward while charging.

For outboards - use a tell-tale wire & seal around the propeller and motor casing. again, trivial.

The mechanism was simple, and unique (at least in 1996, 2002, 2004, 2006 races) as the lead seal was embossed with the SSS logo built into the crimp. I even saved mine from prior races - it's a unique seal and part of the race that lives in my memory.

I like the shaft seals, as it suddenly takes away the ability to motor that we're all used to (at least in boats with built-in motors, perhaps the outboard folks are completely used to not having a motor when they are racing).

- rob/beetle
(currently in La Paz, Baja)

WBChristie
01-07-2014, 01:58 PM
Bob
I wasn't trying to needle you...just adding some memory to the discussion. Even after the shafts were sealed, I tried to sail
out. Of course, the positioning in the Corinthian dock area sometimes made that too time consuming. I do remember getting
stuck in the mud, nearby and required the busy tug to pull me off (but not toward the finish!). I really see no point in it, being
as we are all "corinthian" in this endeavor. And you were absolutely correct in pointing out the "friendship" aspects of the race.
And even when most entries had SSB, the check ins were voluntary and added greatly to the participants' enjoyment. The
addition of the "race ruining" penalty for non-check in almost got me to quit! IT ADDS NOTHING TO SAFETY!!! That's what the
requiered EPIRB and LIFERAFT and ROCKETS are for. In my old wooden sloop, I went to Fr Polynesia and back via HI without
those things...safely too...I think. And 3 more passages to HI and back, to boot. Just another story. The only really safe thing
to do is: STAY HOME. After reading the latest list of "hoops" for 2014, I'm likely to do just that....

I sincerely hope you compete in this race. The SHTP just wouldn't be the same without you.

Preparing for this race is a daunting undertaking for me, a relative newcomer to single handed sailing.

Philpott
01-07-2014, 08:38 PM
Hi, Rob, are you embargoed?

brianb
01-07-2014, 08:52 PM
Thank you Rob for the detail. Was the rule such that the skipper set up the seal and the inspector certified and applied a lead seal marker to the entire affair ?

Brian

tiger beetle
01-07-2014, 11:44 PM
Hi, Rob, are you embargoed?

Hi Jackie -

no, nothing like that happening here on Beetle. I've got all my paperwork in order should anyone want to check it out. Tomorrow I'm heading out to the local island anchorages for a couple of weeks, should be some wonderful sailing and exploring to be done!

- rob

tiger beetle
01-07-2014, 11:49 PM
Thank you Rob for the detail. Was the rule such that the skipper set up the seal and the inspector certified and applied a lead seal marker to the entire affair ?

Brian
Hi Brian -

the way it worked was a member of the race committee came on board when the boats were assembled at Corinthian YC and worked with skipper to determine how best to seal the shaft with the thin wire, and together the wire was installed and sealed (crimped). Part of the goal is to make sure that if the skipper engaged the transmission the wire would break free and allow the motor to be used - we didn't want a skipper wasting time cutting the wire before using the engine. Took perhaps 10-15 minutes per boat as usually it was pretty straightforward. Most difficult motors to work with were the Volvo sail drives, as you can't actually get at the prop shaft.

- rob

brianb
01-08-2014, 12:44 AM
There was a fair start on a sunny day, a nice finish, and 2800 miles of wind, waves, dolphins, and competition in between. All else is rather secondary. I thought the race was a wild and great time ! I am sure once again it will be a great time.

Ragnar
01-13-2014, 01:27 PM
Right, and I'm sure everyone had their PHRF rating adjusted for having no engine aboard.

Right???

Apologies for my tone with my above comments. It's just that this issue has been eating at me a little bit, and it came out in a poor manner.

To elaborate a little: my quick read on NorCal PHRF requirements are that Certs are issued with auxiliary propulsion or without. I don't know, but I would assume that NorCal PHRF can issue two different Certs with two different configurations for a given boat, one with an engine, one without.

Had I thought about the 2012 SHTP rules more - that I could just rip my engine, fuel tank, shaft, and propeller out without penalty - I would have been more than tempted to, as how could you be competitive otherwise? Or more likely I wouldn't have bothered to do the race at all, because it would have been too much of a PITA, especially bringing my boat in from out of the area.

FWIW, PHRF SoCal is a little different. They require auxiliary propulsion w/ sufficient fuel and only issue Certs on that basis. SoCal also specifies that any changes to the standard interior and rig configuration invalidates the PHRF Cert and must be reported to the PHRF Board.

PSSA uses PHRF ratings and enforces the PHRF requirements. PSSA also sets up its baseline requirements beyond what PHRF requires as to what is generally carried by a prudent mariner, so as to not unfairly punish the prudent mariner for carrying equipment weight that the less prudent may not carry. We also try not to stray too far from ISAF Regs, primarily for insurance purposes and "standard practice".

Each boat's rating should reflect the configuration they are going to Hawaii in.

Wylieguy
01-13-2014, 06:57 PM
Damn! I wrote a long reply, but the website timed me out and I lost it trying to get back on. Here goes for a 2nd time since I feel it's important! ! ! !

Before this thread turns into a Sailing Anarchy, burn everything in sight thingy, I ask that folks read the NCPHRF Guidelines and even the NCPHRF Meeting Minutes. Both are easily available on the <yra.org> website.

Here's Section VI lifted directly from the NCPHRF Guidelines:

VI. ASSUMPTIONS

As noted previously Certificate ratings are based on sailing courses consisting of beating, reaching and running as well as those
of approximately equal amounts of upwind and off-the-wind sailing on San Francisco Bay and surrounding areas. They should
not be used for predominately downwind racing. Suggestions for modifying the ratings for downwind races are provided in
Article VII

Wind Ranges can be extremely varied as noted in Article 1 with an occasional 30+ knots gear-buster. As noted in Article 1 and
repeated here for emphasis, the ability of a yacht to achieve her best performance in other than the average conditions may be
taken into account when there is a significant difference observed in the yachts design parameters that would better suit her to
either of the extremes of conditions.

The NCPHRF Base Rating assumes that yachts:
A. Are in optimum racing trim with all normal equipment on board;
B. Have hull bottoms that are fair and clean;
C. Have sails in good condition;
D. Have a folding/feathering propeller or a stored or raised outboard;
E. Have no jib LP greater than 155% of J; For some yachts the manufacturer delivered configuration may differ and will
be so annotated in the NCPHRF Base Rating Report;
F. Have mainsail girths not to exceed the maximums for MGU and MGM as
prescribed in Article 7;
G. Have spinnaker, either symmetrical or asymmetrical
H. Have spinnaker maximum girth of 180% of J or 180% of SPL (spinnaker
pole length) whichever is greater;
I. Have spinnaker maximum luff of .95 * [(the greater of I or ISP) 2 +
(the greater of J or SPL) 2 ]1/2; For some yachts the manufacturer delivered configuration may differ and will be so
noted in the NCPHRF Base Rating Report;
J. Are well sailed;
K. Are not ‘stripped out.’ The intent of this rule is that the boat be sailed with all the equipment on board that she had when
the committee assigned the handicap. This means that all the doors, drawers; tables and systems are in place. If it is a
production boat, all the items that are considered stock by the builder are still on board. If it is a custom boat, it should
be as the drawings and photographs presented to the committee. If a rating certificate (IOR, IMS, IRC or MORC) was
presented to help assess the boat’s speed potential, she should have everything onboard that was present at the
measurement. If items have been removed, depending on the weight involved, the committee may adjust the NCPHRF
rating of the boat. An exception to the above stated guideline is that cushions may be removed;
L. All sails must conform to IMS sail dimension limitations, except as may be modified by these Rules and Guidelines.
Boats do not need to meet these guidelines. However, if they do not, the committee must be notified of such changes as
a rating adjustment may be made.
M. The NCPHRF Committee will review cases where the same class may have outboard or inboard engines and, where
appropriate, establish a different base rating for each type of engine.

"D" clearly states that is is assumed the boat has a "feathering/folding prop" or outboard "stored or raised." Clear? If you regularly sail without an engine, you must note that on your NCPHRF application. If you have an outboard and you "occasionally" leave it on the dock you are cheating. Simple.

"K"deals with stripping stuff out of your boat, so if you tear out your engine and tanks or other stuff, you need to tell the NCPHRF Committee that's what you've done and they'll adjust your rating accordingly. It's not fair to get a rating and then shed several hundred pounds. And, it's a good idea to keep some records of what things weighed and even take some photos; they'll most likely ask. A production boat should sail with everything the factory installed unless it has been noted.

Back in my Newport 30 days, tempers flared over "balsa wood" tables replacing 3/4 inch plywood ones; curtains replacing mahogany louvered head doors, and other "adjustments" to what was basically a "Cruiser/Racer." The famous "Waterpik" was not allowed to participate in one-design Newport 30 racing due to the modifications to the rudder, keel and rig. In my Coronado 25 days it was an Evinirude 6 (remember?) vs the new, lighter Hondas. "Honda boats" were required to carry 20# of lead in the lazzerette, and competitors checked.

If you think a competitor has modified his/her boat, call them on it. If they don't do anything, contact the NCPHRF Committee; it can call the owner in for a chat. Read the NCPHRF Committee Minutes; they're instructive. At a level of racing above the SSS, boats are constantly changing keels, rigs, sails, even something as minor as a different headstay fitting. "K" attempts to deal with those kinds of changes in all rated boats.

"M" applies to my Wyliecat 30, a production outboard model. Some Wylies have inboards, so I pay a 3-second-per-mile penalty for not dragging a prop through the water. There are other one-designs where inboard vs. outboard is a rating issue. There's even a Bird Boat with an inboard!

So, you can sail without an engine, but you must declare that; however, the ocean races with which I'm familiar have "propulsion" as a requirement for entry. You must sail with the "stuff" that came out of the factory unless you declare it. If you're rated for a small headsail and decide you need a genoa for Hawaii, you need to declare it. The SSS TransPac rating is based on the NCPHRF rating, so if you're not in compliance with the numbers on your Certificate, you're cheating. If you know someone who is out of compliance, I think it's your duty to call them. The "Corinthian Spirit" that SSS folks like to talk about is based on mutual trust because you know each of your competitors is doing the right thing, just as you are.

Since I'm not on the SSS TransPac Committee, I leave it up to them, but my assumption is that all the boats sailing this year will "reflect the configuration they are going to Hawaii in." If you're going to Hawaii and you suspect a boat is not in compliance, it's your duty to call them on it. It's unfair to you and the other competitors if you don't. Additional issues have surfaced in prior SSS TransPacs, including suspected motoring (banding props/transmissions), outside assistance, outside communication for some. The SIs have attempted to address these issues, without putting a boat name on each - just ask some old timers about that. --Pat

sdpaine@cox.net
01-13-2014, 10:04 PM
Thank you P.Broderick - Elaine for your post. Your points are well taken. I have owned my boat for many years and some things have gone out and some things have gone in! I have not raced the boat for over a decade and had not really given much thought to the need to submit those changes to the NCPHRF. Now I will. Elvestrom said it best, ""If in the process of winning you have lost the respect of your competitors you have won nothing."

Steevee
01-14-2014, 11:33 AM
So the gist of this thread is... play by the rules, don't cheat and if you do cheat and don't get caught you're a loser, if you get caught you'll be despicable.
When it's my turn to race in the SHTP I will trust the RC, my competitors, my boat and myself. Everything else is left to chance.
I see the SHTP as a personal goal and I'll be happy to just finish. Is that not the spirit of this race? Maybe I should just cruise to Hawaii if it's not.

Travieso
01-14-2014, 02:45 PM
Well, like many things in this world there is some room for interpretation. That being said the safest approach is for full disclosure to the rating committee.

'My interpretation' which is not the rating committee's interpretation and its worth its weight in sand, is that the main consideration of declaring an outboard is to indicate that you are not dragging a prop or a folding prop through the water while sailing. The weight of the outboard is not considered as a separate entry in the cert submission and their weights could vary significantly (from say 20 lbs to 90 lbs). As such, whether or not you can race without an outboard legally would depend on the displacement submitted on the cert. I would argue that if your cert displacement doesn't include the outboard you can legally race with or without an outboard. If your displacement includes the outboard you should carry the outboard onboard whenever racing.

I could see how this becomes a more sensitive subject for 1-design classes, but 1 design rules tend to be explicit in this subject.

Now, how many of you have 'weighted' your boats. How close are you to the displacement on your cert (you see where this is going). For my boat, the submitted displacement is the spec displacement as I'm sure most of us have. For my boat that doesn't include the weight of an outboard. So I would argue that I'm legally racing with or without an outboard. Unfortunately it is impossible to tell from a cert what is the displacement used, so don't be too quick at passing judgement.

I know we all get sensitive about ratings, and if we are really worried about 20 - 30 lbs of an outboard, it is more likely that the certificates displacements are farther off than the weight of a small outboard, and all boats should be weighted on the measured trim. (hmmm isn't that what Pac Cup is doing now, you can see why).

brianb
01-14-2014, 09:38 PM
Pac Cup weigh ins are necessary for certain classes. PHRF not so much. You do become ineligible for the overall trophy if you are not in the correct class.

brianb
01-14-2014, 09:39 PM
Gasoline is typically stored on deck to prevent fire.

Wylieguy
01-14-2014, 11:43 PM
For better or worse, since I began sailing in 1971 I've never owned a boat with a diesel engine. Anemic 4s and outboards. And, to top it off the Newport had a pressure alcohol stove! Lucky I'm alive and have eye brows. Yes, gas is stored above deck. Yes, it's handled very carefully. I've sailed thousands of miles with a gas engine and never inhaled fumes below, but I've also sailed on many friends' diesel boats and become sick from the fumes. Ordinarily I don't get seasick, but give me a couple of hours in a closed cabin with diesel fumes and don't get in my way to the rail!

The PacCup began weighing "serious" boats this year. There's a protocol of what is taken off and what remains on board to be weighed. I think the bottom line will be quite a few skippers are going to find that they weigh a lot more than the boat show brochure listed. After all, except for the Express 27s and Moores most boats have been soaking up water for years. It does present a great opportunity to sort through the bottom of the cockpit locker. There may even be a special PacCup Flea Market for skippers getting rid of things they haven't seen nor used in years!

Back in the late 1980s/early '90s there was an attempt to "legitimize" the SSS TransPac so it would be more recognized by a larger racing community than a some local guys with an occasional gal and out-of-towner tossed in. Peter Hogg invited some of his pals, like Steve Fossett, to come along. There was a lot of discussion among the troops as to whether the race should be more than a long club race (Farallones + 2,000 miles) or not. There were couple of races where the "let's make it famous" folks were in charge, but they failed to attract the French boys or anyone else of much note, so Steve Fossett went on to bigger things (taking Peter with him) and things sort of slid back to the more informal level.

Neither of the Hawaii races from San Francisco show up too much on the National/International shorthanded racing radar and that's probably a good thing since without sponsorship worries and pampered skippers they're just plain fun whether you win or not. --Pat

Steevee
01-16-2014, 09:04 AM
"Neither of the Hawaii races from San Francisco show up too much on the National/International shorthanded racing radar and that's probably a good thing since without sponsorship worries and pampered skippers they're just plain fun whether you win or not. --Pat"

Well said! In the end I'll trust the RC. I trust they won't get too elaborate with requirements to the point of being cost prohibitive to even do the race. As is, it's already expensive when you include survey, entry fee, PHRF certificate, tracker and all required safety equipment, not to mention the overall cost of outfitting a boat for passage making that one would normally do even if not in a race.