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standardhuman
03-23-2014, 08:51 PM
Has anyone sailed to the Pacific Northwest after Hawaii? I would love to discuss how this changes navigation of the High relative to sailing to SF or LA.

Thanks,
Brian

peter00
03-24-2014, 08:58 AM
North until the butter gets hard, then east.

pogen
03-24-2014, 09:34 AM
Paul Elliott did this on VALIS did this after the 2012 PAC cup

Wylieguy
03-24-2014, 10:15 AM
You might want to check with the Vic-Maui Race folks up in Washington. I assume most of their boats sail back to up that way after the race.

peter00
03-24-2014, 11:31 AM
I was kidding of course (above) I've done the trip about 7 or 8 times. You could email me with any questions or we could risk boring everyone on the forum, your choice pheiberg@yahoo.com

todd22123
03-25-2014, 06:38 PM
I've read the whole thread so far, so please stay here.

Todd


I was kidding of course (above) I've done the trip about 7 or 8 times. You could email me with any questions or we could risk boring everyone on the forum, your choice pheiberg@yahoo.com

brianb
03-25-2014, 09:00 PM
Peter is the Man, a life time in those waters.

Mewes
03-25-2014, 10:35 PM
Brian,
Plenty of Hawaii racers head up to Seattle or beyond after finishing. It's not that uncommon. Jeanne Socrates sailed on to Sitka, Jim Fair to Puget Sound, etc. Most hard-core might have been Andy Evans whose Olson 30 was delivered to Victoria on her bottom.

As Thumper says, please keep your questions here if you don't mind.

Lucie

BobJ
03-26-2014, 10:27 AM
I hope to do that trip next time and spend a month or so cruising around up there and doing the Northern Century race. Yes, Rich and Edie sailed Andy's boat back in 2006 and had some issues (broken boom, etc.)

I'd expect the navigational issues to be similar to returning to SF - tracking the position and movement of the EPac High, and how much fuel you take determining how deep you want to cut through it to shorten the distance. Also, it tends to be light on the approach and Strait of JdF that time of year, so you'd want to keep more fuel in reserve for the end of the trip. Rich and Edie made the trip without an engine but as I recall it took a LONG time.

I'm anxious to hear more details from the experts.

standardhuman
03-26-2014, 05:08 PM
Great tips Bob. I'm listening with great curiosity. Perhaps Peter might expand on cutting through vs. sailing around.

BobJ
03-27-2014, 02:17 PM
In the "a picture is worth a thousand words" category, here's the last page of my handout from the prior Return seminar. This is what the High looked like just before the start in 2006. Normally 40N might be enough coming back but not in this scenario! Fortunately for the return trip (but not good for the race) this High shrank and moved down, and I was able to come home along 38N right into SF. The return took only two days longer than the race.

You can see why the trip from HI to WA isn't that much farther than HI to SF - you have to go pretty far north either way.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q304/BobsailsSF/EPacHigh40N2006.jpg

peter00
03-27-2014, 06:46 PM
Everything that everyone has said makes good sense. Of the times I've made the trip, twice the high has been unavoidable and both times with weather routers advising, once in Dashews Beowulf and once in a Catalina 42. In both cases a lot of fuel was used, in the Catalina we were running on fumes when we got to Victoria. The best trip ever was in a hundred year old engineless pilot cutter (18 days to Tofino). I was never bothered by bad weather until after the 2010 PacCup when Jim Quanci told me I should expect one gale every time and every time since he said this I have had a gale. I always suspected that Jim sat on the right hand of God (and a little lower) but really. Returning last June we ran into a 972 low. Now tell me when in the history of the world there has been a 972 low in mid June in mid latitude Pacific. So here is my plan....leave Kauai and head north or as close as you are comfortable. By the time you are out of the trades it will usually get light for a couple of days, use fuel judiciously, but once you are past the horse latitudes it doesn't matter what you want to do because the lows and highs are USUALLY moving a lot faster than you can. As you head north you will eventually get into a westerly flow. Sometimes I haven't made any serious easting until I'm at the latitude of Winter harbour (top of Vancouver Island). After the PacCup returning with the crew from hell we were a lot closer to the Aluetians than to Hawaii or N. America. Best trip 17 days, worst trip 21 days. Strait of Juan de Fuca can really really blow hard in the summer (winter and spring and fall)but normally in summer it will be behind you (unless your Karma is particularly bad). I hope I don't sound like a complete idiot but basically go north until you're allowed to go east, then go east.

standardhuman
03-27-2014, 08:51 PM
I'm definitely getting the picture now. Poring over good old fashioned pilot charts (http://msi.nga.mil/NGAPortal/MSI.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=msi_portal_page_62&pubCode=0003) was also very helpful. I can probably safely carry about 106 hours of fuel. Is there somewhere near Hanalei to stock up on karma?

BobJ
03-27-2014, 09:41 PM
The Tahiti Nui (downstairs). BTW, do you know there's a Tahiti Nui in Pape'ete too?

ronnie simpson
03-29-2014, 06:28 AM
I skippered the IP 380 Champ from Kauai to Seattle after the last SHTP. We had easterly trades up to 35 N and then had to motor north to 48 N 160 W. Dead north from Kauai. The high was huuuuge and no amount of diesel would have crossed it. Once we got to 48 N, we had brilliant sailing in westerlies, didn't start the engine again until 60 miles from Cape Flattery. Motored into Port Angeles for pizza and diesel and then pushed on to Puget Sound. Hawaii- PNW is a beautiful trip.

I have done 3 of the Hawaii- SF deliveries as well and have had good sailing on two of them, including a passage where we went up to 41 N and ran the engine for a grand total of 4 hours the whole delivery.

Things can definitely get variable and change, but a Hawaii to PNW delivery in summer is likely to be a very very nice sail that you will enjoy. Bring gear for Mahi Mahi and tuna and get ready to see some whales. The marine wild life north of about 42 N was absolutely spectacular.

edit- totally agree with what Peter said, but both times i did strait of juan de fuca in summer i had light air. Just sayin'. sounds like it can be a variable beast. a 972 low is f'ing nuts. We had 30-35 for 3 days, i don't remember if a low was over us and compressed the westerlies over the high or what. I think the Dana 24 will probably be a cool ride. It's an ambitious voyage but i support it fully. Tom Watson sailed his engineless triton from Hanalei to Neah Bay in 26 days in 2012. He got becalmed past Neah Bay in the STrait of JdF and towed into Neah Bay by the USCG, damaging his wind vane. And my cruising bot in Hawaii now started in tacoma. small boat voyages in the PNW rock. good luck on the Dana.

peter00
03-30-2014, 07:57 AM
I'll just add one more thing. A reduction in speed (from top speed) when motoring of 10% can (on some boats) result in a reduction of fuel consumption of 30%. When I do get caught by a major high pressure area I just idle along at 3 or 4 knots in the direction that seems most helpful (ie not always on the rumb line). Psychologically it makes you feel like you're getting somewhere and, at least on my current boat, uses virtually no fuel. A lot of energy seems to go into 'wave making' as you approach hull speed but there are a lot of people on the forum that know more about this than me.

sleddog
03-30-2014, 10:16 AM
If sailing from Hawaii to cruise the Pacific NW, a possible alternative is as Stan and Sally Honey did on their Cal-40: sail to the top of Vancouver Island, clear at Port Hardy, then cruise inside Vancouver Island, mostly downwind, east and south through the Discovery Islands, Desolation Sound, and down the Straits of Georgia. Mileage and weather wise it's not much different than using Straits of Juan de Fuca as landfall. And avoids backtracking.

peter00
03-30-2014, 05:09 PM
When I read the above post I immediately started to reply that Port Hardy is not a port of entry. I see however that there are customs and immigration at the airport so I suppose they do boats too. Good to know. Also you can get into Port Hardy under sail (if you anchor outside the inner harbour). That is something you can't do at Victoria or Sydney or even Nanaimo. Trust the Honeys to do it smarter.

cafemontaigne
03-31-2014, 12:41 PM
I sailed back from Hanalei to Seattle on Idefix (Olson 30, no engine) in 2010. Our approach was to sail as close to the trades as comfortable and get no closer to the center of the high than the 1026 isobar, or something like that. The first three days were pretty bumpy close reaching in the trades, then things smoothed out and the boat was coasting along at about 6.5 knots close reaching under genoa in flat water and about 10kts of wind. We ended up sailing due North for about 1000 miles (to about 45 north) as the high kept moving North and West (it looked remarkably like Bob's picture, except a little more North). Eventually the wind clocked enough to let us turn in for shore, and a couple days later it clocked enough again to hoist a kite. There were three days of really light wind as we skirted the North edge of the High before it picked up again, and eventually we saw 25+ knots of breeze off the coast before it shut down completely for another three days, and thankfully picked up enough to give us a good run down the Strait. So exactly what Peter said. Go North until you can go East, then go East.

The total trip was 23 days, which I've been told is pretty ridiculously slow. Obviously having a very light boat was helpful in the light breezes we saw for most of the trip. I'd been told to expect rough weather, but it was all very mild, and a great trip overall. But it sounds like we may have been lucky (972 low? yikes!). The hardest part was watching the tropical blue water turn steely grey and the temperature drop a couple degrees every day.

Funny anecdote, we ran into a 50-ft cruising ketch in the light patch of wind on the North side of the High. They had left Hanalei five days before us, tried motoring through the High, and were down to about a gallon of fuel. We left them in our wake (after boarding them and drinking their rum, no joke) and figured we'd get to Port Townsend five days before them. Then we got becalmed 20 miles offshore and they used their last bit of fuel to motor past us.

sdpaine@cox.net
03-31-2014, 08:09 PM
Thank you all for the above information. Looks like Jack is coming back on her own bottom also. Thinking about taking 25 gallons of gas that should get me about 80 hours of motoring at 4.5 knots or about 360 miles if it is flat. Any thoughts on this idea?
Thanks

peter00
04-03-2014, 05:35 PM
Don't smoke

sdpaine@cox.net
04-03-2014, 07:43 PM
Excellent advice. No more cigars in the cockpit.

haulback
04-05-2014, 11:00 AM
More of the same.

I've done several trips back to the BC from Hawaii, the best being 17 days from Hanalei to Cape Scott at the north tip of Vancouver Island with Haulback, and the slowest 31 days from Hilo to Juan de Fuca in my previous boat - a Gulf Island 29. All the rest were in to 20 to 24 day range. I recall the distance to Cape Scott is about the same distance as the entrance to Juan de Fuca - depending on how the weather shapes up for the trip home.

The basic drill for me, leaving Hawaii has been anywhere from 500 to a thousand miles more or less due north out of the islands, as close to the wind as I want to sail, then either motor (or in the case of the 31 day trip, drift for a day or two) before picking up some breeze and making of it what you can to where you are going. I would favour some extra northing early on as you make the turn, to look for the good westerly winds at higher latitudes

No sense trying to motor through the High on a rhumbline, do the sensible thing and sail over it.

There will be a few pleasant days between losing the trades with all that awful crashing to windward, before you get far enough north to get under the marine cloud layer, which may stay with you for days and days. Lots of wind, but lots of cold damp fog, some days I have had trouble even seeing the front of the boat. (my remedy: go below and read a book and let the boat find it's own way - I just get scared if I think about it too much)

Like any other stretch of the ocean you can have anything from nice sailing to a gale to no wind at all, but whatever it is, she's bound to change sooner or later.

I second the motion for going round the top of Vancouver Island. You will be positioned to enjoy some of the best cruising waters you will ever see. Head straight in to Port Hardy (There is a marina deep in Hardy Bay, or raft up at the commercial fish dock beside it) pick up the Hydrographic Service Tide and Current publications, and you're ready to go.

I am not too sure about using the customs guys at the airport to clear in with, but it might work. I have in the past phoned down to the closest port of entry, Campbell River a ways further down-island, and whined about a weeks worth of minor repairs, slow boats and big tides......they have cleared me in over the phone. One way or another it will work out, I am sure.

Take your time and poke around Blackfish Sound, the Indian Group at the bottom on Queen Charlotte Sound. If you are in a hurry you can make a dash down Johnstone Strait and pop out into the Gulf of Georgia through Seymour Narrows, but it would be much better if you take the back way and try to hit all the rapids and passes you can. Follow the current tables and 'there will be 'no drama' ........you will be rewarded with some wonderful scenery, great anchorages and lovely cruising. you might even catch a couple salmon for dinner along the way

If you do decide to enter Juan de Fuca, it's all pretty straight forward. If you rest up in Neah Bay and leave first light, you will be able to transit it in a day. The shipping lanes are down the middle of the Strait and mostly they stay where they are supposed to. if for some reason it is blowing SE, wait 'till it stops - your day will be a misery, and there are not many places to stop if you don't make it all the way in daylight. A NW'ly will usually get stronger as the day progresses and push you along nicely.

Anyway, hope this finds everyone well, I am watching preparations for the SHTP ''14 with great interest and a bit of envy. Haulback is just wrapping up a very nice little cruise over the last month-and-a-half down here in Tasmania. Lovely sailing, nice anchorages, a bit cool, but nothing a diesel heater can't fix.

Jim/Haulback

Paul Elliott
04-16-2014, 02:54 PM
As Pogen mentioned, After the 2012 Pac Cup we sailed home to Friday Harbor. It was a great sail, with a fair bit of motoring. The first 1000 miles or so are much like to San Francisco return: Heading north as best as we can, and trying to make a little easting if possible. Watch the Pacific High, and as you approach 40 degrees latitude keep an eye on the low-pressure systems moving SE from the Aleutians. The High is often diffuse, and can settle on top of you with little warning. The North Pacific lows can compress the top of the high giving you a good, fast, path to San Francisco, or in this case, Cape Flattery.

But don't let the GRIB predictions sucker you into making a premature move eastward. I was trying to bring VALIS to the PNW after the 2010 Pac Cup, but took what I thought would be a good shortcut, sailing into one of these low-pressure channels, only to have it shut down, leaving me with an impenetrable maze of high pressure and contrary winds between me and Cape Flattery. Rather than fight it, I took an easier route to San Francisco (which was my "Plan B").

Our 2012 trip had us motoring for a couple of days (cumulatively) as we pushed through the NW edge of the Pac High, and later as we were within a hundred miles of Vancouver Island. In between we had some pretty strong winds and large seas, courtesy of a low pressure system that was moving east. We tried to thread the needle between that low and the Pacific High, and I think we did a decent job of it. Here's a video of that segment, taken by one of the crew: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYnb5FGWjlM. The trip took us 17-12 days.

I blog about our return trip, and some of the routing decisions we made, here: http://sailvalis.com/wordpress_1/?p=519

VALIS will be sailing from Friday Harbor to San Francisco on (+/-) June 1, then racing in the Pac Cup (we're comms boat again, this time sharing the chores with Cayenne). If anyone would like to check their SSB, during our June delivery I will be running a daily radio test net. Details will be posted. After the race I plan to bring VALIS back home to the PNW.

peter00
04-16-2014, 06:27 PM
Paul, you may remember Scaramouche from the 2010 Paccup. We will be departing Vancouver BC probably June 2 so we might cross paths at Neah Bay or we'll be listening for you ,cheers, Peter

sleddog
04-17-2014, 09:18 AM
Great to hear from Jim on HAULBACK!

When leaving Hawaii, no real reason to slap the boat on the wind. Even if you sail a bit west of North, reaching is more comfortable, faster, and gets you to the offwind breezes on the western lobe of the Pac High sooner.

25 gallons of fuel should be fine. As Peter says, no reason running engine at max throttle. Half throttle or less makes apparent wind you can use to supplement motoring speed by motor sail. On six return passages with WILDFLOWER, average fuel consumption with 1GM10 was .18 gal/hour.

One thought, if sailing home alone, when motoring, rig a trip line from the cockpit engine throttle/gear shift down to your bunk. If reading below, or asleep, loop this trip line around your arm. Then when you snag some rope or net, you can quickly slow the engine and/or shift into neutral without wasting time climbing out of the bunk and ondeck. In this case, a few seconds can mean less grief.