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tboussie
10-13-2015, 08:54 PM
I am retrofitting a Capo 30 (precursor to Olson 911S) for single-handed racing, including the SH Transpac. The boat is 30’ LOA, 7200 lb displacement, tiller steered, symmetric spinnaker, PHRF rating (125% LP headsail) of 123. Electronics are B&G Triton (wind, depth, speed, gps). I am currently working on the autopilot choice and would welcome feedback from the SSS community before I commit to a system.

The rudder tube is enclosed, so I am looking at above-deck tiller drive systems only. After much research I have concluded that my best options include (in order of increasing cost/complexity):
1) Tiller pilots such as Raymarine ST2000+ or Simrad TP32
2) Pelagic Autopilot
3) Raymarine EV-1 (or X5)
4) Simrad SD10 or Octopus RS below-deck cable drive routed to above-deck tiller (driven by Simrad AC12 computer / RC42 compass)
5) L&S 32ST16BP above-deck hydraulic ram + below-deck pump (driven Simrad AC12 computer / RC42 compass / RF300 rudder angle indicator)
6) Any number of below-deck mechanical or hydraulic linear rams coupled to above-deck tiller through Morse cable (driven by B&G computer/compass/rudder angle indicator)

Going through these options,
1) Tiller pilots such as Raymarine ST2000+ or Simrad TP32
I have found these to be okay for motoring and light sailing but not adequate for any serious single-handed sailing and any kind of seas.
2) Pelagic Autopilot
Total kudos to Brian for putting together an inexpensive and robust system. Perhaps he is modest to a fault, but I feel a bit sketchy using this as my primary autopilot system, particularly for Hawaii. I am happy to be convinced otherwise by people with more experience with the system.
3) Raymarine EV-1 (or X5)
It is the only directly tiller-compatible system from a major manufacturer, but I find the drive pretty crappy and the EV-1 SW interface seems to be dumbed-down for the motorboat market. Also mixing B&G and Raymarine electronics seems like a nightmare.
4) Simrad SD10 or Octopus RS
I believe there is a J-88 in the SSS fleet with this set-up (driven by NKE). I really like it because a) it is relatively cheap ($1200), b) the installation is straightforward, c) it has an internal rudder angle sensor which saves me $270 and avoids a vulnerable external sensor mount, and d) it is compatible with the B&G computer system. I worry about the a) relatively low maximum thrust, b) the relatively slow hard-over time, and c) the lifetime of the linkage cable. Input from anyone with real world experience with the Simrad/Octopus system would be welcome.
5) L&S 32ST16BP above-deck hydraulic ram + below-deck pump
The cost ($2400 + $270 for rudder angle sensor) aside, this is my current first choice. The ram is designed for external use, requiring only bulkhead feed-throughs for the hydraulic lines. The pump stays below out of the weather. There is a history of successful integration with B&G electronics, and L&S are widely used in the Mini and other single-handed fleets. My concerns are about a) power draw, b) the need for an external rudder angle sensor, and c) and cost/benefit vs. option 4 above – i.e. is this overkill for my boat. Again, it would be good to get real-world feedback from other sailors who have experience with this or related systems.
6) Other below-deck rams coupled to above-deck tiller
This introduces a wide range of options (potentially good), but introduces additional complexity in installation (potentially bad). A representative system would be a Simrad HLD350 MK2 below-deck drive unit coupled via a Morse cable to the above-deck tiller. What seems straightforward in principle looks to be to be a bit more complicated in practice. I am mechanical, but not infinitely so. I am willing to pay a bit more to avoid excessive installation challenges (i.e. option 5 above). Again, advice from anyone who has undertaken such an installation would be welcome.


All other suggestions/feedback on autopilot is welcome.

Tom

Philpott
10-13-2015, 10:01 PM
Tom, Dura Mater has a Pelagic. Brian and I plan to take it out onto the Berkeley Circle to calibrate it this Friday. I look forward to a downwind life without fear, without that hyperventilation up on the bow as I feel my autopilot getting distracted and heading up into the wind. DM is 6700 lbs before chocolate and other equipment. You are welcome to come sailing w me to see what you think. Wouldn't you rather spend all that money on a new beemer?

BobJ
10-13-2015, 10:47 PM
Random thoughts:

I agree about the ST-1000 or ST-2000 - okay for motoring inshore and light upwind only. I used a ST-2000 for awhile.

I've sailed on a J/88 with the Simrad TillerPilot driven by a B&G MFD (Zeus?) mounted in the drop board. This was better than trying to slide aft every time you wanted to adjust the TP (or tack or jibe). We were sailing with a big masthead ass'y in light air and this combo worked pretty well. I think you'd want a spare Simrad TP for Hawaii - it seemed a bit light and exposed. One advantage is the Simrad TP will work autonomously if there's a problem elsewhere in the system.

Chris here has the other J/88 with the SD-10 mounted in the back of the cockpit and controlled by an NKE system. My understanding is it took awhile to get dialed in but I haven't heard about any problems since. I think he has Brian's Pelagic AP as his backup. Chris will probably chime in here.

I have Brian's Pelagic drive unit, controlled by my Raymarine EV-200 (primary) or X-5 (backup). His drive is quiet and silky smooth compared to the Raymarine cockpit drives, but there are a couple issues calibrating it with the EV-200. It's probably fine if you use it with an X-5 or with his own controller. I'd trust it on a Hawaii race before the Ray drives. They're okay if you maintain them and carry spares. My experience is that one Ray drive *might* get you to Hawaii if it was just serviced and you keep the boat balanced.

I don't think a hydraulic drive would be good for Hawaii, given the power draw. The Minis use them in combo with electric cockpit drives (usually the Ray drive) to save power. If you do a Morse cable to a belowdecks drive you need a way to release it quickly. I bought the EV-200 (instead of the EV-100) because it has a clutch circuit. This opened up the option for a belowdecks drive if I cut into the rudder tube (and I might).

I agree about Ray's EV systems being dumbed down. The X-5 is the better unit - those contemplating a Raymarine system would do well to track down an X-5 (or X-10) while you still can. The X-5/10 can also work over SeaTalkNG (NMEA 2000) so you can use Ray's newer instruments. I'm in the process of converting everything over - the "backbone" architecture of their new stuff is a big improvement. Those interested can come and take a look in Vallejo this weekend.

I still have an ST-4000 somewhere: It's a stand-alone controller (no ACU) with belowdecks fluxgate and the same Ray Q047 cockpit drive. It's not a gyro but it was okay for my boat - it was my backup to the X-5.

If I had your B&G instruments I'd probably use Brian's drive, either with his controller or with a B&G MFD. As he'll tell you, the drives are just +/- pulses. They're agnostic as to bus language.

Daydreamer
10-13-2015, 11:30 PM
Watching this thread with keen interest.

I have a Raymarine ST 2000 on Nightmare and the same full rudder tube.

Upwind around the bay it does ok. It wanders more in the swell but keeps me going in the general direction so I can reef etc
Reaching it is pretty slow to react so it will occasionally round up. This was my experience returning from the Farallones.
Off the wind with a masthead symmetrical I am not sure where I trust it. From 150 to 175 off the wind and with the swell it seems to do well enough to get the kite down.

My ST 2000 said it has auto sea state, that it learns. I am not convinced.

I have no instruments either so will be building a complete system.

tboussie
10-14-2015, 12:51 PM
[QUOTE=BobJ;12407]Random thoughts:

Chris here has the other J/88 with the SD-10 mounted in the back of the cockpit and controlled by an NKE system. My understanding is it took awhile to get dialed in but I haven't heard about any problems since. I think he has Brian's Pelagic AP as his backup. Chris will probably chime in here.

I don't think a hydraulic drive would be good for Hawaii, given the power draw. The Minis use them in combo with electric cockpit drives (usually the Ray drive) to save power. If you do a Morse cable to a belowdecks drive you need a way to release it quickly. I bought the EV-200 (instead of the EV-100) because it has a clutch circuit. This opened up the option for a belowdecks drive if I cut into the rudder tube (and I might).



Bob - thanks for your input. Some follow-on observations.

I am working on an electrical budget including autopilot draw. The hydraulic systems do draw more power, but then again they are more powerful. It is difficult to know just how much power (maximum thrust in AP language) I will need for my boat in the anticipated conditions. Feedback from similar boats would be appreciated.

Regarding the J-88 with the NKE/Octopus set-up, I would like to talk to Chris about his experience to date, so if you see him please encourage him to contact me (tboussie at gmail dot com).

The nice part of the below deck drive linked to the external tiller via a cable is that you can physically engage/dis-engage the drive at the tiller, just like you do with a tiller pilot or the X-5. No need for a clutch and the associated drag and current draw. The only pre-packaged systems I am aware for this kind of set-up are the Octopus RS and Simrad SD-10 (actually both Octopus products, the SD-10 is just re-branded for Simrad). I have considered building my own system with a more powerful / faster drive, but I have struggled to find a push-pull Morse cable with a 10-12" throw. Also the mounting issues are non-trivial. And I have no time.

Tom

BobJ
10-14-2015, 01:43 PM
If I finally go to a belowdecks drive I want to be done with the cockpit drive issues which have plagued me for years. I'm willing (read "thrilled") to power a clutch circuit to get there.

Also, make sure your Morse cable's quick release at the tiller is really quick. I've had too many close calls when Bay racing to count, even just getting to the tiller quickly enough to lift the drive off the pin. I'm talking myself into cutting that rudder tube as I write.

Wylieguy
10-14-2015, 02:03 PM
I have a brand new in-the-box Raymarine Smartpilot X-5 Tiller system with an ST6002 Control Head that I might be willing to part with if the price is right. Any offers? Pat Broderick. my last name with no "K" at sonic dot net All lower case.

todd22123
10-15-2015, 09:13 AM
Random thoughts:

I have Brian's Pelagic drive unit, controlled by my Raymarine EV-200 (primary) or X-5 (backup). His drive is quiet and silky smooth compared to the Raymarine cockpit drives, but there are a couple issues calibrating it with the EV-200. It's probably fine if you use it with an X-5 or with his own controller. I'd trust it on a Hawaii race before the Ray drives. They're okay if you maintain them and carry spares. My experience is that one Ray drive *might* get you to Hawaii if it was just serviced and you keep the boat balanced.

As he'll tell you, the drives are just +/- pulses. They're agnostic as to bus language.

Bob- What issues did you have using Pelagic drive unit with EV-200? Are you using the option of setting "hard over" time, rather than separate rudder reference indicator?

Alpha has a rudder post drive with what appears to be a simple and functional mechanical disconnect. I have never seen it in person, but it seems that one could use this for below deck drive w/o clutch.

http://alphamarinesystems.com/alpha_30002.htm

Ragnar
10-15-2015, 10:27 AM
If you plan to keep the boat a while, I would pursue option 5 for reliability. Seems like everyone fusses with their electric drive units, but I don't see or hear about much fussing with hydraulics. Like the electric drives, cover the hydraulic rams somehow. Zimaz had this setup & it ran for years. The rudder angle sensor was mounted in the cockpit alongside the ram. The tradeoff in my mind with hydraulic vs electric drive is reliability v amps. Power consumption is higher with hydraulic in part due to the solenoid needed to stay open with the hydraulic option. Someone found a system that was able to bypass this and thus draw less power to drive the pump, but I don't know the system.

If not, buy a couple of Simrad TP's and be done with it. Or a TP and Pelagic. You will need at least 2 drive units. I would take 3 if coming back on your own bottom. Test it a while in rough conditions to test your mounts & connections & make sure you can repair these at sea. I would guess Pelagic's drives are more reliable, but these need more real world testing.

You don't need an AP connection to your instruments to go to Hawaii. Compass course is fine. There are advantages to using a true wind function, but that is tough and costly to do well.

BobJ
10-15-2015, 10:33 AM
1) On the EV-200 (and I assume the EV-100), the dockside calibration includes a step which requires moving the drive to one stop (hard over) and then to the other stop. With the Pelagic drive you can only do this with it engaged, using the controller's buttons (you can't force it by hand). But you can't use those buttons while you're calibrating so it's a catch 22 with the Pelagic drive. I have to calibrate the pilot with the Ray drive and then change to the Pelagic. That's do-able if you have both drives.

2) Because the EV's are dumbed-down, you have to lie to the computer to get the drive to respond fast enough. The Ray drive and Pelagic drive are both 5-7 seconds lock-to-lock. If you calibrate the ACU for that speed it's way too slow - you have to tell it the hardover time is 11-12 seconds so it thinks it has to respond faster. The Pelagic drive is still too slow to respond - the response of the Ray drive (when the ACU is lied to) is closer to normal.

3) Not a drive problem but to deceive the ACU in (2) above you can't have a rudder reference. If it sees a rudder reference it won't let you set the hard-over time.

Hey, you asked . . .
___________________

Ragnar, glad to see your post. I've been trying to click the "Read More" button on your blog but it doesn't work. I know there's more to the story - very sorry.

todd22123
10-15-2015, 10:58 AM
1) On the EV-200 (and I assume the EV-100), the dockside calibration includes a step which requires moving the drive to one stop (hard over) and then to the other stop. With the Pelagic drive you can only do this with it engaged, using the controller's buttons (you can't force it by hand). But you can't use those buttons while you're calibrating so it's a catch 22 with the Pelagic drive. I have to calibrate the pilot with the Ray drive and then change to the Pelagic. That's do-able if you have both drives.

2) Because the EV's are dumbed-down, you have to lie to the computer to get the drive to respond fast enough. The Ray drive and Pelagic drive are both 5-7 seconds lock-to-lock. If you calibrate the ACU for that speed it's way too slow - you have to tell it the hardover time is 11-12 seconds so it thinks it has to respond faster. The Pelagic drive is still too slow to respond - the response of the Ray drive (when the ACU is lied to) is closer to normal.


Agree this is bizarre, and it is what I have found, as well. In order to have the AP respond faster, the hardover time is set longer on the programming. Less intuitive that whatever preceded it, some type of boat response or gain setting, if I recall correctly.

The piece I still do not understand is, since the drive is "agnostic", why do they respond differently to the current from the controller?

Assuming what you say is true, "The Pelagic drive is still too slow to respond", does this make the Pelagic drive less attractive as a backup for the Ray drive, at least for anyone who has the EV-200 controller?

Thanks,
Todd

BobJ
10-15-2015, 11:12 AM
I wouldn't say that yet. I need to do more extensive on-the-water testing, hopefully with Brian aboard. He's only seen his drive work with the X-5 - my EV-200 is new.

WBChristie
10-15-2015, 12:09 PM
Agree this is bizarre, and it is what I have found, as well. In order to have the AP respond faster, the hardover time is set longer on the programming. Less intuitive that whatever preceded it, some type of boat response or gain setting, if I recall correctly.

The piece I still do not understand is, since the drive is "agnostic", why do they respond differently to the current from the controller?

Assuming what you say is true, "The Pelagic drive is still too slow to respond", does this make the Pelagic drive less attractive as a backup for the Ray drive, at least for anyone who has the EV-200 controller?

Thanks,
Todd

The drives are geared differently. It takes more current to move the Pelagic than the Ray.....so a "burst" of current/voltage (its a pulse width modulated system) will not translate to the same movement/stroke even if the hard over time is the same at full voltage.
In the case of switching between the pelagic and the ray, you would have to have set the hard over time for each so that the same response would be achieved from both drives. Experiment by switching between the drives and playing with the hard over time. Then write down the different hard over times for each drive and change the hard over time when you change the drive.

WBChristie
10-15-2015, 12:21 PM
1) On the EV-200 (and I assume the EV-100), the dockside calibration includes a step which requires moving the drive to one stop (hard over) and then to the other stop. With the Pelagic drive you can only do this with it engaged, using the controller's buttons (you can't force it by hand). But you can't use those buttons while you're calibrating so it's a catch 22 with the Pelagic drive. I have to calibrate the pilot with the Ray drive and then change to the Pelagic. That's do-able if you have both drives.

2) Because the EV's are dumbed-down, you have to lie to the computer to get the drive to respond fast enough. The Ray drive and Pelagic drive are both 5-7 seconds lock-to-lock. If you calibrate the ACU for that speed it's way too slow - you have to tell it the hardover time is 11-12 seconds so it thinks it has to respond faster. The Pelagic drive is still too slow to respond - the response of the Ray drive (when the ACU is lied to) is closer to normal.

3) Not a drive problem but to deceive the ACU in (2) above you can't have a rudder reference. If it sees a rudder reference it won't let you set the hard-over time.

Hey, you asked . . .
___________________

Ragnar, glad to see your post. I've been trying to click the "Read More" button on your blog but it doesn't work. I know there's more to the story - very sorry.

So, Bob you have a feedback sensor on the ray drive but not the pelagic? Does the pilot work better with the feedback sensor for you?

BobJ
10-15-2015, 12:43 PM
I had a rotary rudder sensor installed with the X-5 but had to disconnect it to trick the hardover time in the EV-200's ACU. If I change to a belowdecks drive I'll try to use it again. Yes, the X-5 seemed to work better with it.

The best setup I ever had on this boat was the old S1G with rotary reference installed. I did the 2006 SHTP race with it, slept with the kite up, etc.- no problems. It's been all downhill from there (going downhill from there?)

WBChristie
10-15-2015, 01:09 PM
Have you tried the ACU-200 with the feedback sensor? I understand that the hard over time cannot be changed with the sensor wired up to the ACU-200 - but I'm curious how the ACU-200 performs with the feedback sensor wired in.

BobJ
10-15-2015, 01:56 PM
I never got that far since I had to disconnect the sensor to get the drives working properly. As you read on the Raymarine Tech Forum (and thanks for your input over there), this has been on ongoing saga.

Thanks for the insight on the gearing differences between the two drives - it confirmed my suspicions. Now I know what sequence I need to go through to make it all work. If the Ray drive wants the hardover time to be set to 11 seconds, what would you guess it should be for the Pelagic - 16-18 seconds?

WBChristie
10-15-2015, 02:05 PM
I never got that far since I had to disconnect the sensor to get the drives working properly. As you read on the Raymarine Tech Forum (and thanks for your input over there), this has been on ongoing saga.

Thanks for the insight on the gearing differences between the two drives - it confirmed my suspicions. Now I know what sequence I need to go through to make it all work. If the Ray drive wants the hardover time to be set to 11 seconds, what would you guess it should be for the Pelagic - 16-18 seconds?

That seems like a good number to try....but one of the reasons I'm curious about the feedback sensor being connected, is that the response might be different with the sensor in the system. the x5 sensor should wire up to the acu-200. My biggest frustration with the evo pilot on my Hawaii trip was that it would give the drive a small correction, but in effect the drive would not move because the "bump" was not big enough to translate into actual rudder movement. All the while, the ACU would assume that the drive had moved, eventually causing a pilot fault due to max rudder applied - but in actual fact the rudder hadn't moved. VERY frustrating. My assumption is that the feedback sensor should fix this - but making assumptions with this drive is dangerous. The Ray people dont seem to understand what I'm telling them when I try to explain this. Maybe I need to articulate it better.

BobJ
10-15-2015, 02:23 PM
The rudder reference clearly worked with the ACU-200 but I'll have to keep disconnecting it when switching drives (to change the hardover time), which might be more trouble than it's worth. But I would install one on your boat - it does help.

Just for comic relief - The other wrinkle is that I'm currently set up to switch between the X-5 and EV-200 "on the fly." I had the same setup with the X-5 and ST4000+ where I could put one on standby and engage the other. Two fluxgates but the rudder reference and drive were connected to both ACU's. It looks like I may need to rethink this.

(Tom, sorry to throw your thread into a cocked hat.)

tboussie
10-15-2015, 03:29 PM
The rudder reference clearly worked with the ACU-200 but I'll have to keep disconnecting it when switching drives (to change the hardover time), which might be more trouble than it's worth. But I would install one on your boat - it does help.

Just for comic relief - The other wrinkle is that I'm currently set up to switch between the X-5 and EV-200 "on the fly." I had the same setup with the X-5 and ST4000+ where I could put one on standby and engage the other. Two fluxgates but the rudder reference and drive were connected to both ACU's. It looks like I may need to rethink this.

(Tom, sorry to throw your thread into a cocked hat.)


Bob - no problem. The more info the merrier. It does confirm my instinct to stay the hell away from the Raymarine AP (with apologies to all the RM devotees out there), or more generally from mixing AP components.

Tom

todd22123
10-16-2015, 05:51 AM
I would not homer for RM, however, I can think of at least two boats that have won overall SHTP using predecessor to current RM system. Assuming one defines value in terms of a combination of time, money, and effectiveness, then RM has a role.

RM ram failures are common, so I hope the Pelagic drive will be able to be used with the RM EV systems and it's parents. I suspect, as WBChristie said, one can just turn up the hardcover time. Although this sounds crazy, it is a trivial menu adjustment to play around with motoring in calm conditions.

Todd

BobJ
10-16-2015, 08:28 AM
Agreed - the input I've read and heard is that calibration issues with B&G and especially NKE are at least as challenging as what we've been discussing above.

There's a helpful RM Tech Forum where problems like yours have probably already been discussed - this is the good side of their huge user base. If you need to send the component(s) back to RM's service facility, my experience is they are turned around quickly and for this kind of thing, without charge. Parts and support are readily available, and there's a vast resale market should you decide to take up BASE jumping instead.

solosailor
10-16-2015, 09:00 AM
It does confirm my instinct to stay the hell away from the Raymarine AP (with apologies to all the RM devotees out there), or more generally from mixing AP components. The Raymarine APs have proven themselves for many years from the ST4000+, the X5 and the Evo. All use the same drives and share displays, etc. I know there have been drive failures but I've never had one let me down and I've done quite a bit of offshore including LongPac and SHTP overall wins and so have many others.

There is not a comparable system on the market..... X-5 and EVO are/were less than $1200. I paid <$900 for a new EVO at the boat show. For the price of an NKE you could have 4+ total systems of Raymarine (or two and another spinnaker !). Don't get me wrong, if you've got the coin to drop $6k+ on the NKE - go for it, you won't be disappointed. Still you need another backup or two for the SHTP.

Harrier
10-16-2015, 11:24 AM
I agree 100% with solosailor. Got a new EVO thing before the '14 SHTP. It came with a new 4000 ram (which is what I wanted to add to my "golf bag" of spares).
Never did install the EVO...just stuck with my 6002 w/X5 system. Last minute changes before the race are no no's for me, so I didn't even install a new solar controller to replace the on-off type. I have since, and the improved controller does well. EVO is still in the box. Can't talk about the NKE or similar expensive ilk.
Used a Tillermaster and Atoms vane on my first SHTP (teehee). Tillermaster was a riot (!) with a chute up...but doable as long as you "baby sat" it. Went to faster Navico stand alone tiller pilot for the 2nd SHTP. Settled on the 4000 and 4000GP thereafter. Still have several Navicos (now Simrad) for backups....I think I should confer with Brian to learn about his system. Compatible with my SeaTalk instrumentation?????

solosailor
10-16-2015, 04:34 PM
I think I should confer with Brian to learn about his system. Compatible with my SeaTalk instrumentation?????Yes, it works with Raymarine brains..... I'll eventually add one of his drives to the arsenal, hear good things.

tboussie
10-19-2015, 08:46 PM
Tom, Dura Mater has a Pelagic. Brian and I plan to take it out onto the Berkeley Circle to calibrate it this Friday. I look forward to a downwind life without fear, without that hyperventilation up on the bow as I feel my autopilot getting distracted and heading up into the wind. DM is 6700 lbs before chocolate and other equipment. You are welcome to come sailing w me to see what you think. Wouldn't you rather spend all that money on a new beemer?


Jackie,

How did it go with Brian on Friday? Did you have a chance to race with the Pelagic AP this weekend?

As for the money, why would I spend my hard-earned cash on a car that I drive every day when I can plow it into another vehicle I use no more than 20 times per year? Makes no sense.

Tom

BobJ
10-19-2015, 09:31 PM
Yeah, funny that. After this (great) weekend Rags can have anything she wants. New standing rigging? Sure. Some sails? No problem. Halyards? Name the color.

I like my car too but all it (not she) gets is gas and oil. It's a loonie hobby we have.

CRC1965
10-21-2015, 08:51 PM
Hi:
I'm the J/88 guy with the NKE and Octopus Drive (everything I state below is based on my reading, opinions and understanding which may have errors....and I am pretty new to this, have only had the boat since March)

I have been quite happy with it. In the LongPac when we had wind .. current draw was about 2 amp ish. The Octopus Drive is a big hunk of electric motor (it gets rebranded by the various companies.....I ordered mine through NKE so it has an NKE sticker on it...but it looks identical to the SD-10 etc). The morse cable that connects to your tiller is equally beefy.....and gets used to push larger outboards around. Neither of these looks like they would fail. Apparently designed for the 15,000 lb or so displacements boats.. My tiller loads are quite small. A major consideration is how you connect this to the rudder. If possible a connection that does not involve your tiller is nice, because you then have another backup system. Could there be some small plastic part that will fail after 1,000 miles....absolutely....but most of the moving parts are tucked below in "safety"

Hard over time....!!!!! keep in mind the cable drive mounts much closer to rudder, than the tiller pilots. What you care about is degrees of rudder changer per second. Which gets quickly complicated because as you move closer to to the rudder on the tiller you leverage goes down, so current draw goes up.....long story short, and many excel spreadsheets later....this is quite quick. Much more important than hard over time is how well the autopilot system will react to swell and how quickly it will correct. Once things really start to load up and a broach starts its too late for anything. The NKE system drives the boat with kite up in 18-20 knots beautifully. I don't have many autopilots to compare to. I am also using the Pelagic Autopilot as a backup which is a very nice unit, made by a really great guy. Buy two!

Ok....some numbers
My left arm at standard position can develop (Easily) 138 foot*lbs (probably lots more when excited), and easily move the tiller 26 degrees per second.

The tiller pilots develop 160-300+ foot lbs or torque (the Pelagic is at the high end, the raymarine/simrad at lower end) but move at about 4-5 degrees per second.

The NKE develops a little over 200 ft*lbs, and moves 7 degrees per second. Some of the small hydraulics develop 100 foot lbs but move 16 degrees per second. Despite higher current draw I am pretty sure this speed is why they are used on the minis.

Regarding NKE and calibration, I am fiddling around to dial it in more, but it worked fine out of the box. The B&G displays are more attractive. I am sure there higher end autopilots would drive any boat equally well. The NKE has a little remote that if separated from the boat will put the boat head to wind. That gives me some degree of comfort (false though it may be).

The raymarine evo unit looks very appealing. The price point is way way way better and you could buy plenty of spare tiller pilots. I would like to think that the autopilot function of the NKE unit would drive a boat with kite up in swell much better, and that is why a bunch of the solo sailors use these units. But I don't have a comparison to say one way or the other.

Good luck with decisions.....

Philpott
10-21-2015, 09:45 PM
Jackie, How did it go with Brian on Friday? Did you have a chance to race with the Pelagic AP this weekend? As for the money, why would I spend my hard-earned cash on a car that I drive every day when I can plow it into another vehicle I use no more than 20 times per year? Makes no sense. Tom


That is an excellent point about the car v the boat. I’ll reconsider everything with that in mind. I went out today and played with my new Pelagic on the Olympic Circle. It was an ebb tide and I think the wind was about 15 knots with maybe bigger gusts. Typical afternoon wind between 1 – 4pm. Since I am not accustomed to my autopilot holding its course, it was a bit disconcerting to find myself heading for Mt Tam and then heading for Mt Tam and then, wait! still heading for Mt Tam! To be honest, without all my usual kvetching and moaning it was quiet on Dura Mater today and a bit boring. So I made myself some coffee and drank it and then spilled it in the cockpit, all the while – yes, still heading toward Mt Tam. Turning back toward Berkeley, sailing downwind I decided to be wild and crazy. I pushed the red button and then the green button and Dura Mater's course shifted ever so slightly. I think that's what it's supposed to do, but it was an unexpected experience for me. The tiller wand didn’t shake and pop off the tiller, Dura Mater didn’t head up into the wind once: it was completely copacetic all the way home. I made a little video with my IPhone but deleted it by mistake, so I’ll have to do it again. The Pelagic was easier to manage than my phone.

brianb
10-22-2015, 07:52 AM
Yeah, funny that. After this (great) weekend Rags can have anything she wants. New standing rigging? Sure. Some sails? No problem. Halyards? Name the color.

I like my car too but all it (not she) gets is gas and oil. It's a loonie hobby we have.

I have to agree with Bob. I had one of those small German machines for years but I routinely found myself stuck on 280N looking at the rear differential of a pickup truck at top speeds of 10 mph. Sure, I could beat nearly anything to the next wall of steel fog, 20 car lengths ahead, but why bother. Something clicked and I opted for investment in sails, rigging, and autopilots, (and more recently a new head). Way more fun blasting down the Bay at 5 kts with nothing but the occasional ferry, J-Boat, or a fog filled slot to contend with.

hodgmo
10-22-2015, 08:14 AM
I have to agree with Bob. I had one of those small German machines for years but I routinely found myself stuck on 280N looking at the rear differential of a pickup truck at top speeds of 10 mph. Sure, I could beat nearly anything to the next wall of steel fog, 20 car lengths ahead, but why bother. Something clicked and I opted for investment in sails, rigging, and autopilots, (and more recently a new head). Way more fun blasting down the Bay at 5 kts with nothing but the occasional ferry, J-Boat, or a fog filled slot to contend with.

car = 'chandlery access resource'

Wylieguy
10-22-2015, 08:17 AM
I have to agree with Bob. I had one of those small German machines for years but I routinely found myself stuck on 280N looking at the rear differential of a pickup truck at top speeds of 10 mph. Sure, I could beat nearly anything to the next wall of steel fog, 20 car lengths ahead, but why bother. Something clicked and I opted for investment in sails, rigging, and autopilots, (and more recently a new head). Way more fun blasting down the Bay at 5 kts with nothing but the occasional ferry, J-Boat, or a fog filled slot to contend with.

I, too agree with Bob, but wait, what did I just say???? Anyway it was a great weekend, even if a pickle dish was 8 or 9 boats ahead of my finish time. "NANCY" the boat can have anything she wants - spreaders, standing rigging, a jib, a chute. She is getting a new (call it main) sail in two weeks, so should be happy with that. The "real" Nancy is jealous.

BobJ
10-22-2015, 08:24 AM
"NANCY" the boat can have anything she wants - spreaders, standing rigging, a jib, a chute.

As they say on the internet, "I see what you did there."

jimb522
10-22-2015, 06:19 PM
The Raymarine APs have proven themselves for many years from the ST4000+, the X5 and the Evo. All use the same drives and share displays, etc. I know there have been drive failures but I've never had one let me down and I've done quite a bit of offshore including LongPac and SHTP overall wins and so have many others.

There is not a comparable system on the market..... X-5 and EVO are/were less than $1200. I paid <$900 for a new EVO at the boat show. For the price of an NKE you could have 4+ total systems of Raymarine (or two and another spinnaker !). Don't get me wrong, if you've got the coin to drop $6k+ on the NKE - go for it, you won't be disappointed. Still you need another backup or two for the SHTP.

With regard to BobJ's and Solosailors observations I would point out a couple of issues. NKE Calibration is an issue, and if you are going to spend the bucks and time to purchase and install it, you want it to do what it is capable of. I dont see that a person new to NKE autopilots is going to be able to make any efficient progress doing it themself.
Cost, Candidly, your estimation of $6000 is about one-third of where you will be, installed on your boat, assuming you get the full monty system. Frankly, I looked at it kind of close to see what I felt I needed and ended up getting speed, regatta compass, wind, GPS, true wind, mast angle for rotating mast, rudder angle, oversize drive hydralic ram (all of which are sensors for the system computor) etc., and am doing some of the install myself, but not all of it. The NKE rep, Bob Congdon, a great guy, is coming down when we are ready to sail to get mine up and running. He is doing it for travel costs in an effort to make sure his product justifies the investment.
There are plenty of cheaper systems, but none of them will accurately steer a boat down-wind in a good breeze with larger waves like an NKE, or its primary competitor, B&G. The cost is similar between the two systems. Ryan Finn, who is working on my boat and competed in the 2004 race, thinks the NKE is gross overkill (financial and mechanical) for the SHTP, and that I could get by on a lot less. BUT, I believe almost every mini in the last tranatlantic race used NKE, and almost every big boat in the Vendee Globe used B&G. That says something about the two systems reliability and accuracy in extreme conditions that I find persuasive.
Ryan is probably right, but I tend to get overly involved (or perhaps submerged is a better word) in my projects. I do plan to do other shorthanded sailing in the boat besides SHTP, and I will snatch it off that boat and put it on something else if I decide this boat is not up to the SHTP, or if I decide and I just too over the hill to do the shtp myself. Damn you Ken Roper.
Jim

CRC1965
10-23-2015, 11:11 AM
Gross Overkill.....too bad I named my boat already ;-)

As someone new to this I certainly accept that my boat nor my autopilot will reach their potential. However, I have seen a couple references to difficulty in calibrating the NKE system and I have found that NOT to be the case. Bob Cogdon helped out for a few hours to input wind correction tables. Compass calibration, rudder angel calibration, final wind angel calibration, speed calibration all handled easily maybe another hour or two. From there the main things to play with gain, rudder coef and counter rudder. All easy to do on fly to match the conditions. I have not been in the big surfing conditions. But beam reaching 25 knots in 8-10 foot seas, Downwind with kite up 18-20 knots in slot, close hauled.....the system drives the boat beautifully. I continue to tweak those three main parameters.

If I am missing something big, please enlighten me.

Chris

jimb522
10-24-2015, 04:45 AM
Gross Overkill.....too bad I named my boat already ;-)

As someone new to this I certainly accept that my boat nor my autopilot will reach their potential. However, I have seen a couple references to difficulty in calibrating the NKE system and I have found that NOT to be the case. Bob Cogdon helped out for a few hours to input wind correction tables. Compass calibration, rudder angel calibration, final wind angel calibration, speed calibration all handled easily maybe another hour or two. From there the main things to play with gain, rudder coef and counter rudder. All easy to do on fly to match the conditions. I have not been in the big surfing conditions. But beam reaching 25 knots in 8-10 foot seas, Downwind with kite up 18-20 knots in slot, close hauled.....the system drives the boat beautifully. I continue to tweak those three main parameters.

If I am missing something big, please enlighten me.

Chris

Chris,
You make my point. Notice that I said "efficiently" calibrate the system. That few hours that Bob spent helping you probably gave you an insight that jumped you ahead a lot of time in figuring out the ins and outs of the system, and gave you a greater depth of knowledge. You are sailing your boat, apparently routinely, in weather I never see. The last 8 foot wave I have seen in person was in 1984 in the OSTAR. It is not that common in coastal Gulf of Mexico conditions. Your description of what conditions are apparently normal for you is intimidating to me, so I tend to do the "gross overkill" in anticipation. It would be a good name for a rock band too by the way.
Incidentally, I bought a handheld Standard Horizon VHF for $150.00 three days ago and I am still trying to make sense out of the owners manual. Maybe I have achieved hardening of the brain in my old age.
Jim

jimb522
10-24-2015, 06:13 AM
Chris,
One of the attractions of the NKE system that I considered was something I read in their marketing literature that indicated that the software had a function to help the development of polar charts for the boat. That appealed to me as I hve a boat that there is absolutely no information on with regard to whatever performance it may have. I know your J109 (?) probably has a plethora of polar tables already computed for it, but have you any experience with this function of NKE on your boat, and if so, was it helpful?
Thanks,
Jim

CRC1965
10-25-2015, 06:54 PM
Chris,
One of the attractions of the NKE system that I considered was something I read in their marketing literature that indicated that the software had a function to help the development of polar charts for the boat. That appealed to me as I hve a boat that there is absolutely no information on with regard to whatever performance it may have. I know your J109 (?) probably has a plethora of polar tables already computed for it, but have you any experience with this function of NKE on your boat, and if so, was it helpful?
Thanks,
Jim

Yes it does. I use a simple tablet and navigation software...... My boat is a J/88 not a 109....so it is new enough that although polar charts are available they are more "theoretical" than actual. The "best" way would be to have a matched boat and perform boat/boat comparisons. I am just starting to play with this software and I hope to use it to dial in the 90% performance level. I have had the pleasure of sailing with people who can dial a boat in quickly by feel; I am looking for some basic numbers so that when tired I can feel that I have the boat moving well....or know time to spend some effort to figure out why slow.

My experience from the Long Pac was that it was very easy when tired for it to take a while to recognize sub optimum performance when presented with the large amount of data present.....in my case being on the wrong tack ;-( for quite a few hours. So having some simple number to follow would have helped.

Good luck

svShearwater
10-26-2015, 05:17 PM
A little more NKE praise...

My wife installed our NKE autopilot and instruments by herself. Not kidding. Just a few calls to Bob for some clarifications during install. I was 3500 miles away at the time. Then as a sea trial of the installation, without exaggeration we literally sailed across the Atlantic. 3300 miles and averaged 170 mpd with autopilot steering 99% of the trip.

We know have over 10k miles with that setup. The anemometer wand did blow off while reading 38 knots and the replacement only worked for a week in Florida (hmm... Wonder why?) both were replaced under warranty.

CRC1965
10-27-2015, 09:39 AM
A little more NKE praise...

My wife installed our NKE autopilot and instruments by herself. Not kidding. Just a few calls to Bob for some clarifications during install. I was 3500 miles away at the time. Then as a sea trial of the installation, without exaggeration we literally sailed across the Atlantic. 3300 miles and averaged 170 mpd with autopilot steering 99% of the trip.

We know have over 10k miles with that setup. The anemometer wand did blow off while reading 38 knots and the replacement only worked for a week in Florida (hmm... Wonder why?) both were replaced under warranty.

Hey, do you know how to pull up saved Pilot profiles.... I have a few setups with particular gain/rudder etc. settings that work great for a point of sail....have saved them with a name....but can't seem to figure out how to pull them up??

svShearwater
11-02-2015, 06:04 PM
Hi Chris. Unfortunately, I don't know without looking at it and the boat is a bit far away at the moment. Also, I have the old Gyropilot Graphic, not the new Multi-graphic, so it may not even be the same.

Harrier
11-02-2015, 07:23 PM
Jim
Starting out thinking your boat or you MIGHT not be up to the SHTP is inadvisable. You'll never know unless.....
You have all my best wishes, but you must be the one to try! And the fancy APs might well be the answer for you, but many,many competitors have done well with lesser equipment.
Ken

jimb522
11-03-2015, 10:33 AM
Jim
Starting out thinking your boat or you MIGHT not be up to the SHTP is inadvisable. You'll never know unless.....
You have all my best wishes, but you must be the one to try! And the fancy APs might well be the answer for you, but many,many competitors have done well with lesser equipment.
Ken

Ken,
I appreciate your advice, but believe me the reason for my qualifications about whether or not I will be able to enter the race are pretty well considered. I want very much to do it, and frankly my wife would have a heart attack if she knew just how much money and time I have spent since May on rebuilding the boat with an intention of entering. I am not slowing down on getting it ready. But, Here are the things I have to think about.
1. Everyone knows the hardest part of the race is getting to the starting line, which incidentally is about 2400 miles from where I am in South Louisiana. I thought I could get the boat to a 600 mile race to Havana from Pensacola that started this past saturday, and was not even close to getting it ready. After that race I was going to single-hand it back to New Orleans, and that would have been my qualifier, and frankly my personal evaluation of myself to see if I still had the fire in me to do it again. Physically I am in pretty good shape. That total experience would have been the test that the boat and myself would have had to pass. I did not get to that starting line, and all the money in the world will not make a clock go slower so you can get more done. And if it did, I didnt have that much money anyway. Now I am thinking of doing a 210 mile race from Miami to Havana, that starts Feb. 10, 2016, which will be followed by a singlehanded sail to St. Petersburg, Fl, for the April 22, 2016 race to Isla Mujeres, followed by a singlehanded sail back to New Orleans.
2. After the Miami to Havana race, I will know what I need to know about the boat and me and will enter the SHTP.
Or Not.
3. My boat is very much an unknown quantity, being an old (and dated) 36 foot LOA, 25 ft Beam, trimaran design which has been modified to be much more powerful. I have opinions, but no data, as to whether it is fast, slow, safe, or seaworthy. The last time I sailed it, it flipped and sank. The water was over my head. My Chinese wife, who was swimming with me, was seriously wondering why she traveled 14,000 miles to marry a crazy man. It will make you think about such things. The cause of the sinking was equipment failure, compounded by pilot error (me) not recognizing what was happening fast enough. It took about a minute.
4. With regard to the gross-overkill autopilot, it just seems like it would help me go faster then a not so gross-overkill. I know I could have gotten by with a much cheaper autopilot, and was advised of that by a shtp veteran before I bought it, but I knew that if I didnt like the final product on the trimaran, I could take it off and put it on another boat I own that is a known quantity.
In any case, I appreciate your thoughts and advice, and if you are at the power management seminar on Nov. 12th, I hpe to meet you in person.
Jim

Harrier
11-03-2015, 12:42 PM
Jim
You make some very good points. I didn't realize that you AND the boat were in Louisiana. I live in South Carolina, myself, but "Harrier" lives in Los Angeles. So it's a lot closer to the start line than yours...still the hardest part of the race is to get to the start line, even when the boat is ready to go. All I can say is your plans for a possible 2016 SHTP look very iffy from a time standpoint. But I'll be pulling for you. The race needs more multihulls, altho they're very rare and can't really be handicapped properly against the other competitors. One year we had 3 tri's in the race, so they had a good competition.
Sorry, but I won't be at the seminar...never have been to any of them as they are too far away. Power management is pretty basic...just remember that if you are relying on solar, I have seen Hawaii passages where the sun didn't appear until the last day or so. All the best....
Ken

Christian
11-05-2015, 11:40 AM
My boat is very much an unknown quantity, being an old (and dated) 36 foot LOA, 25 ft Beam, trimaran design which has been modified to be much more powerful. I have opinions, but no data, as to whether it is fast, slow, safe, or seaworthy. The last time I sailed it, it flipped and sank. The water was over my head.

This confuses me. With six trimaran races to Bermuda, I'm concerned. What boat is it, age, material, salvage issues....?

jimb522
11-05-2015, 07:26 PM
It was designed by Andrew simpson in early 70's wo partnered with bruce wild in sea-brook, Texas, as a 32 foot X 25 foot cruiser-racer, called a shifter 32. (Actually 31 ft, 6 inches) About 9 were built between 73-79. It was put together by previous owner from parts, who made a longer mast, and added 4 feet to the stern and moved the rudder back to the new transom. I added a 6 foot bowsprit, masthead kite, took almost every metal fitting out of thr mast and boom and re-rigged the boat. BIG square-top main, screacher and huge kite plus fractional kite. By January I hope to have a handle on it with extensive sea-trials for de-bugging. I should have bought a farrier 31R. Less money and twice the speed.

Christian
11-06-2015, 09:55 AM
Sea trials plan sounds good. In Newick tris of the era we encountered extreme forces on underwater foils at high speeds, leading to rudder area reduction. However in several gales we lay to a parachute sea anchor very well, with no tendency to skate like a fin keel monohull. Best of luck with the project.