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View Full Version : I have decided to buy a life raft..am I nuts?



mike cunningham
02-20-2016, 07:48 PM
I have been pondering a liferaft for awhile. Actually I have been pondering just about every SHTP upgrade for several months now but the beauty of a liferaft is you just get one and you're done. Other than than writing a check and watching your money disappear, it is the easiest ponder on the list.

But I refuse to accept easyness. The accountant in me wants to calculate the pluses and minuses of renting vs buying. I found a 4 pers Viking Rescyou Pro liferaft with the required approvals and pyrotechnics for $3000 delivered. If I compare than to a rental from Sals which is $300 a week with discounts for longer term, say $1000 for the trip to Hawaii and back. I figure if I buy in May I can squeeze out two SHTPs and one Longpac before recert thus saving $2300 before I have to pay to recertify. I spend $1000 to recertify and sell the raft for $2000 (f I wanted to) and wind up $300 to the good and I don't have to keep schlepping the raft back to Sals every time I rent. Not only that I have a liferaft aboard the rest of the time I am sailing. And... since I bought it, I gotta financial incentive to keep doing these damn races.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

BTW I get a laugh out of the marketing. "our raft has a copious 4 square feet of space for every survivor" Four square feet is the size of the floor of my home refrigerator. Two heads would be snug, four heads and a day or two after boarding the raft, someone is going bye bye. Good thing we are singlehanders!

BobJ
02-20-2016, 10:02 PM
There's an accountant in you? Then from one accountant to another let me give you some advice: Do not, under any circumstances, record the costs for this activity. Use different credit cards, cash, checks, barter, etc.- keep it mixed up. Don't think about it, just blindly spend. Otherwise you'll end up in the nut hatch.

Regarding the raft - sure, buy the thing. If I ever get the Solo Tahiti Race off the ground you'll be all set.

You're welcome!

todd22123
02-21-2016, 03:46 AM
Is anyone aware of any other rental options?

pogen
02-21-2016, 12:00 PM
First rule of sailing, never add up your annual expenses and divide by number of hours spent actually sailing. Never.

SeanRhone
02-21-2016, 01:20 PM
I was at the Miami boat show last weekend and looked at three different life rafts and the Viking life rafts seemed like a good buy. One company, I think Datarex, custom builds the life raft per order where Viking has the sitting and ready to ship. I also liked the equipment pack that Datarex has over Viking. Price wise, I think Viking is cost less and the money saved could be used to make the equipment pack better.

When you decided on what you're buying, I'd love to to know what you bought and why.

bizirka
02-22-2016, 12:27 PM
I had a similar conversation with my self last week.

Anything wrong with the Revere Offshore Commander 2.0. I don't think the pyrotechnics fit the bill but can those be separate - in a ditch bag?

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|135|2290100|2290102&id=2695035

mike cunningham
02-22-2016, 09:37 PM
I had a similar conversation with my self last week.

Anything wrong with the Revere Offshore Commander 2.0. I don't think the pyrotechnics fit the bill but can those be separate - in a ditch bag?

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|135|2290100|2290102&id=2695035

I was going to buy a used - well pre-owned- Revere Offshore Commander. At the last minute I had another look at the equipment requirements and saw that the requirement reads

"A boat shall carry an inflatable life raft designed for saving life at sea with designed capacity for containing the entire crew. The raft shall
be SOLAS, ISAF, ISO 9650-1 or ORC approved. The raft shall be stored in such a way that it can be brought to the lifelines within 15
seconds. The life raft may be stowed in a deck mounted rigid container, stowed in a watertight or self-draining purpose-built rigid
compartment opening adjacent to the cockpit or the working deck, or stowed in a valise not weighing over 88 lbs. secured below deck
and adjacent to the companionway. The life raft shall hold a current certificate of inspection."

I saw no mention of any of the approvals on the Revere website and subsequently called them. To their credit they were very responsive but did confirm their rafts are recreation only and no approvals. As I read the rules you have to have at least one of the ones mentioned. The Viking I am considering has the ISO 9650-1. I have no idea if any inspectors will be anal enough to actually check this technicality. But it would suck to have an expensive raft and find out it did not meet the requirements.

Harrier
02-23-2016, 09:00 AM
In 1984, I was preparing to enter the SHTP and needed a life raft to meet race requirements. I made numerous requests of the race committee for a description of type required...off shore, USCG certified, coastal...What??? Never could get an answer so bought an offshore Viking raft from Defender. It was monster that weighed 90 ponds or so. When I made it to SFO for the race start, I discovered that there really was no standard for the SHTP. Much as thru 2014, "suitable for saving life at sea" was it.
Next race, one competitor had what she called a "helicopter raft". I checked it out and saw that it was a parachute seat-pack one man raft...no cover, but would float one person, which it was designed to do. Then the next race I entered required a cover for the life raft. So I had a pull-over cover made for a parachute raft that I had brought home from Vietnam and entered the 1992 race. The inspector passed my raft as meeting the specs, but in 1994 the requirements were changed to require a "self erecting canopy.
Sayonara the parachute raft which weighed abt 12 lbs. Next race and all subsequents done in Harrier, I had an English 5 man raft which met SHTP specs...still have it. I guess I'd need a new one for this year since mine never met the ORC, SOAS or whatever specs...except for equipment requirements of flares, etc. I, for one, am glad to see the requirements finally spelled out...but maybe that's because I don't have to meet them! See ya'll in Hanalei...I hope. Checkout my 33 lb raft.

BobJ
02-23-2016, 10:07 AM
Maybe this belongs in Philpott's "Sailing Music" thread, but this thread's title is the theme song for doing SHTP prep:

I have decided to buy a <life raft>
I have decided to buy a <life raft>
I have decided to buy a <life raft>
No turning back, no turning back.

Then you just substitute EPIRB, side band, chart set, etc. as you sing it over and over until the money runs out.

hodgmo
02-23-2016, 11:22 AM
"Then you just substitute EPIRB, single side band, chart set, etc. as you sing it over and over until the money runs out."

Don't forget to buy sails and lines.

And a sextant: http://www.npr.org/2016/02/22/467210492/u-s-navy-brings-back-navigation-by-the-stars-for-officers

jakmang
02-23-2016, 01:46 PM
The secret is knowing what to buy first....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFtnNn4qYtg

bizirka
02-23-2016, 02:44 PM
I was going to buy a used - well pre-owned- Revere Offshore Commander. At the last minute I had another look at the equipment requirements and saw that the requirement reads

"A boat shall carry an inflatable life raft designed for saving life at sea with designed capacity for containing the entire crew. The raft shall
be SOLAS, ISAF, ISO 9650-1 or ORC approved. The raft shall be stored in such a way that it can be brought to the lifelines within 15
seconds. The life raft may be stowed in a deck mounted rigid container, stowed in a watertight or self-draining purpose-built rigid
compartment opening adjacent to the cockpit or the working deck, or stowed in a valise not weighing over 88 lbs. secured below deck
and adjacent to the companionway. The life raft shall hold a current certificate of inspection."

I saw no mention of any of the approvals on the Revere website and subsequently called them. To their credit they were very responsive but did confirm their rafts are recreation only and no approvals. As I read the rules you have to have at least one of the ones mentioned. The Viking I am considering has the ISO 9650-1. I have no idea if any inspectors will be anal enough to actually check this technicality. But it would suck to have an expensive raft and find out it did not meet the requirements.

shoot - I am literally going to be broke.

jakmang
02-23-2016, 03:07 PM
I have a Revere that is approved. I think it is an offshore model. I would call them and double check.

bizirka
02-23-2016, 03:51 PM
I have a Revere that is approved. I think it is an offshore model. I would call them and double check.

Thanks - I know the elite (more expensive model) says it has 'approved pyrotechnics' but it doesn't specify on their site if the raft its self is approved. I will give them a call and try to figure it out.

mike cunningham
02-23-2016, 05:57 PM
Thanks - I know the elite (more expensive model) says it has 'approved pyrotechnics' but it doesn't specify on their site if the raft its self is approved. I will give them a call and try to figure it out.

That is the key. Somewhere on the manufacturers website you need to see the word "approved" Take a screenshot and tape it to the raft so the inspector can see it. That's a great idea!!

You just saved me $1500. I love this forum.

Harrier
02-23-2016, 06:09 PM
Oops! I just read the race requirements. The life raft doesn't have to be SOLAS, ISAF etc....Did I miss something? So in order to qualify for this years' race, Harrier would only have to add a tricolor at the masthead....all academic tho. It is another hoop!

mike cunningham
02-23-2016, 07:07 PM
Oops! I just read the race requirements. The life raft doesn't have to be SOLAS, ISAF etc....Did I miss something? So in order to qualify for this years' race, Harrier would only have to add a tricolor at the masthead....all academic tho. It is another hoop!

Aargh!! I went to look at the SHTP equipment requirements and sure enough, they do not include the raft approval requirements which were contained in the equipment requirements reference for the LongPac (2015 LongPac Minimum Equipment Requirements (LPMER)).

Ye gads, this is worse than taxes. I guess I could go for the less expensive raft so long as they don't change back for the next LongPac. Although I doubt anyone is checking.

Sorry, I assumed SHTP and LongPac raft requirements would be identical. I take back everything I said about approvals.

bizirka
02-24-2016, 10:22 AM
Aargh!! I went to look at the SHTP equipment requirements and sure enough, they do not include the raft approval requirements which were contained in the equipment requirements reference for the LongPac (2015 LongPac Minimum Equipment Requirements (LPMER)).

Ye gads, this is worse than taxes. I guess I could go for the less expensive raft so long as they don't change back for the next LongPac. Although I doubt anyone is checking.

Sorry, I assumed SHTP and LongPac raft requirements would be identical. I take back everything I said about approvals.

hallelujah! To be clear - is it a-okay to have the pyrotechnics in a ditchbag vs packed into the liferaft?

Harrier
02-24-2016, 10:54 AM
Always has been....

BobJ
02-24-2016, 01:27 PM
To be clear - is it a-okay to have the pyrotechnics in a ditchbag vs packed into the liferaft?

It's actually preferred to have them in the ditch bag (assuming you aren't talking about the ones we used to put in people's mailboxes.)

pbryant
03-03-2016, 03:50 PM
Yes, a sextant is a good idea! I really dislike the idea of bobbing around with no idea where I'm at.

I do "security stuff" for a federal agency. Let's just say that: if the Navy has resumed teaching celestial navigation, they have a good reason. GPS is very, very vulnerable and fragile. Provided I'm not bouncing around too much, I consistently get +/- 15 nm positions on noon sites with even the cheapest Davis sextant, a good wristwatch (or WWV on the SSB), a copy of the Nautical Almanac, and a few hours of practice. Good enough to not miss Hawaii. Too bad we don't have eLORAN here in the States as a backup - but that's another topic.

These three videos are the best summary I've found on taking noon sites:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrAkrgZRb9Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWGOlpj4YwE&index=2&list=PLah9ocjQNN0YwXXY-w41kunzvsIOP1-bT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNWTN2LQ-TU

Harrier
03-03-2016, 06:04 PM
Hell, I made it from Los Angeles to Nuku Hiva (30 days) in 1978 with nothing but a wrist watch, sextant and Radio Shack receiver for time hacks and WWV weather. Had taught myself to do the Air Navigation tables. Hit Nuku Hiva right on the nose. Anyone can do it. The book I learned from was a super simple "how to" by a Cal Tech grad. My criteria for accuracy was "within the visibility". The GPS is really super. I did use the Navy sat-nav system in '84 and '86. Positions available every 3 hours or so, with dead reckoning in between. Cost $1500 for the system, which I justified with my wife as reducing the "falling overboard danger" while using the sextant from the aft pulpit! Used that system til 1990....And many times I have used the hand held AM radio null system touted by Skip recently...still do, just to back up the GPS.

pbryant
03-03-2016, 06:21 PM
I was going to buy a used - well pre-owned- Revere Offshore Commander. At the last minute I had another look at the equipment requirements and saw that the requirement reads

"A boat shall carry an inflatable life raft designed for saving life at sea with designed capacity for containing the entire crew. The raft shall
be SOLAS, ISAF, ISO 9650-1 or ORC approved.

Where did you see that, Mike? I can't find it here: http://sfbaysss.org/resource/shtp2016/2016RRC_Final_111315.pdf. Are we looking at the same document? I too was considering the Revere Offshore Commander.

brianb
03-03-2016, 07:41 PM
As long as war doesn't break out with Russia, China, or France the US sat. cluster should be sound.
Regarding your life raft, make sure the docs state it is in compliance with the required specs. The inspectors check for this. A manufacturers compliance statement can usually be obtained if it complies.

mike cunningham
03-03-2016, 10:01 PM
Where did you see that, Mike? I can't find it here: http://sfbaysss.org/resource/shtp2016/2016RRC_Final_111315.pdf. Are we looking at the same document? I too was considering the Revere Offshore Commander.

No we are not, You are looking at the right one and I am looking at the requirements for the 2015 LongPac which I foolishly assumed were the same. In fact they are different. Why? I haven't a clue. But the requirements for SHTP seem to be less rigorous than those for the LongPac.

The people in charge are confirming the rest of us are mentally sound by ensuring we can sort through all of this administrivia and reach the correct conclusion. Very very crafty.

BobJ
03-03-2016, 10:07 PM
Some former SHTP Race Chairs included a copy of the equipment list in the skippers' binder so you could look at the list while you were sailing to Hawaii. I'm sure all skippers did this faithfully.

Anyhoo, the LongPac includes doublehanders and the requirements are based on the NorCalORC (now USSER) spreadsheet. The SHTP list is faithful to SSS's roots . . .

pbryant
03-04-2016, 11:27 AM
As long as war doesn't break out with Russia, China, or France the US sat. cluster should be sound.
Regarding your life raft, make sure the docs state it is in compliance with the required specs. The inspectors check for this. A manufacturers compliance statement can usually be obtained if it complies.

Thanks Brian. I apologize in advance for being tedious, but in compliance with what? I doubt any of the manufactures have a cert that says they're in compliance with: "the SHTP race rules." I assume you are referring to something else. Or do you mean that the life raft must have the features (self-erecting canopy, etc.) that are required, but not necessarily an ISO, SOLAS, etc. certification? I appreciate the inspector's problem of having to deploy the raft to verify it's configuration.

On the topic of GPS reliability, the Europeans and Asians are spending billions to build a backup in the form of eLORAN, which is terrestrial and much less prone to jamming and spoofing. Since we invented GPS, we're reluctant to admit its weaknesses. The greatest vulnerability is cyber attack on the "ground segment," which can come from anyone. There is also the constant threat of a coronal mass ejection (CME) taking out the entire constellation for days or weeks (along with the HF radio spectrum). We dodged a CME bullet in July 2012 (http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2014/23jul_superstorm/) that, had the Earth been re-positioned just seven degrees in its orbit, would have taken out a lot more than just GPS (http://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/201603/space-weather.cfm). And then there's always the risk of electrical failure. It's a "high impact/low probability" risk, but one worth spending about $200 and a little practice time to mitigate. Plus, there's a certain deep satisfaction in learning basic celestial navigation (which really is easy) and taking a sight that gets around all the technology, connecting one with the long history of navigation. On my own boat, I use both the U.S. GPS and Russian GLONASS constellations, but I still plan for the possibility of being left with only a watch, a compass, and a sextant. It's just prudent, in my opinion.

I've always felt that a big part of sailing is self reliance. Knowing how to navigate without advanced technology seems to be an element of that.

JohnS
03-04-2016, 11:57 AM
Section 4.47 [a][5] states:

"The life raft shall have a valid certificate from the manufacturer or an approved servicing agent certifying that it has been inspected, that it complies with the above requirements and stating the official capacity of the raft. The certificate shall indicate that the life raft’s next inspection will not be required before July 23, 2016. The certificate shall be carried on the yacht."

The pertinent "above requirements" seem to include "designed specifically for saving life at sea...remain afloat and support the skipper even when filled with water...a canopy or cover, which automatically sets in place when the life raft is inflated. The cover shall be capable of protecting the occupant against injury from exposure and shall be a highly visible color."

Okay, that all seems fair enough but I doubt whatever certificate is produced will explicitly state "highly visible color" or anything about floating with x occupants even when flooded as these items will likely be assumed. So, meeting the specific language of the RRC's may prove difficult if someone runs into a picky inspector.

This sticking point could be remedied by simply removing the requirement that these items be listed on the certificate but leave them in the rules. Thus the raft would have to have a self erecting canopy of a highly visible color but the certificate would not need to state such.

Those who rent will probably not even think twice about this and I doubt it would become a real issue. But if I were buying a raft I, too, would want to make damn sure it was going to pass inspection.

I wonder if we can dig up some sample certificates, either from those who own rafts or from previous renters. Could be interesting to see just what is on the things.

hodgmo
03-04-2016, 12:59 PM
The datasheet for the 4-person (Viking RescYou™ Pro) liferaft I've carried in two SHTPs is described here: http://admin.sds.viking-life.com/fileexplorer/fetchfile.aspx?id=17563

The certificate includes that it has 4 person capacity and complies with 'Type 1 Group A' of ISO 9650-1.

The liferaft contents didn't include all the SHTP-required signaling devices, so i bought the missing stuff separately and store it in my ditch bag. If you get one, i highly recommend you ask to see it packed.

BobJ
03-04-2016, 01:04 PM
As John suggests, if you're renting from Sal's you'll be GTG. If you're buying a new raft I'd consider getting something that meets the broader rules (Pacific Cup, etc.) since SHTP isn't the only rodeo around here. It will also be easier to re-sell.

If you're buying something used I'd show Sal (or whoever will service it) the ad first and make sure he can certify it. I've shown him a couple ads and he told me what the likely issues would be based on the raft's age and brand. Often older rafts can't be recertified, even if they spent their entire lives "in Grandma's closet, untouched by human hands." According to Sal, valise rafts are also getting harder to recertify.

If it's a known brand and has an in-date certificate I can't imagine one of SSS's inspectors will have an issue with it.

mike cunningham
03-04-2016, 06:23 PM
The datasheet for the 4-person (Viking RescYou™ Pro) liferaft I've carried in two SHTPs is described here: http://admin.sds.viking-life.com/fileexplorer/fetchfile.aspx?id=17563

The certificate includes that it has 4 person capacity and complies with 'Type 1 Group A' of ISO 9650-1.

The liferaft contents didn't include all the SHTP-required signaling devices, so i bought the missing stuff separately and store it in my ditch bag. If you get one, i highly recommend you ask to see it packed.

I like this plan. Done.

With regard to pre-owned rafts some fellow is Washington State is trying to sell a raft manufactured in 1980...needs recert... ummm I don't think so.

The Smokester
03-04-2016, 08:16 PM
No we are not, You are looking at the right one and I am looking at the requirements for the 2015 LongPac which I foolishly assumed were the same. In fact they are different. Why? I haven't a clue. But the requirements for SHTP seem to be less rigorous than those for the LongPac.

The people in charge are confirming the rest of us are mentally sound by ensuring we can sort through all of this administrivia and reach the correct conclusion. Very very crafty.

As well as the liferaft ones, the storm sail requirements for the 2016 Transpac are slightly different than the 2015 Longpac. If you buy based on Transpac requirements you might not meet requirements for other ocean races.

pbryant
03-16-2016, 11:14 AM
Practical Sailor has a good comparison of 6-man rafts here: http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/33_4/features/At_Sea_Flotation_Devices_5422-1.html (2007).

I'm planning on buying the Viking RescYou 4-man raft, not the "Pro" version. Like the Practical Sailor reviewers, I don't like the high windage/wave exposure of the Pro canopy. If the raft inflates inverted, I'll have to flip it. It also weighs 11 pounds less than the Pro. Both have the same ISO 9650 Type I certs. I also do overwater flights as a commercial pilot, and the prospect of shoving 11 pounds less out a cabin door really matters (the aviation liferaft I use now is a joke).

dhusselman
03-16-2016, 11:49 AM
Practical Sailor has a good comparison of 6-man rafts here: http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/33_4/features/At_Sea_Flotation_Devices_5422-1.html (2007).

I'm planning on buying the Viking RescYou 4-man raft, not the "Pro" version. Like the Practical Sailor reviewers, I don't like the high windage/wave exposure of the Pro canopy. If the raft inflates inverted, I'll have to flip it. It also weighs 11 pounds less than the Pro. Both have the same ISO 9650 Type I certs. I also do overwater flights as a commercial pilot, and the prospect of shoving 11 pounds less out a cabin door really matters (the aviation liferaft I use now is a joke).

Agreed with your assessment. I ordered the RescYou 4-man raft, not the Pro.


Dirk "TIJD" - First 30JK

mike cunningham
04-23-2016, 11:11 AM
At risk of beating a dead horse...

I decided upon the Viking RescYou 4 man but have held off a buy to eek out the max cert duration on the new raft. In the meantime I have continued to check out other possibilities.

I came across this on Craigslist:

http://olympic.craigslist.org/bpo/5545429605.html

I got a very rapid response from the seller org which is

https://www.spindriftrowing.com/

I called and spoke to Sonya - she confirmed price and ISO cert.

This seems like a very attractive package for about $800 less than the Viking (valise models)

datasheet here: http://www.datrex.com/index/pdfdownloads/doc_id/8

Sonya is shipping some rafts to Monterey in coming days (apparently she is outfitting some rowers) and she needed a third order to get free shipment. I am seriously thinking of jumping on board.

Anyone have any thoughts?

SeanRhone
04-27-2016, 12:45 PM
Not to dissuade you, but last month I was at a Safety at Sea class in Annapolis MD and they demo'd a Viking RescYou Pro 4 person raft and it didn't deploy all that well. Now, I'm guessing this was a demo life raft that had been used dozens of times before and maybe it just needed to be changed out, but it didn't fully inflate and was missing the manual inflation pump (got a video of this if anyone wants to see it).

That being said, Viking RescYou Pro is one of the life rafts I am looking at for my own use when I hopefully do the SHTP in 2018.

Philpott
04-27-2016, 07:58 PM
Couldn't we invite the Viking RescYou folks out to a "Deploy Off" with other raft makers?

CRC1965
05-05-2016, 12:22 PM
Another cost to consider is the inspection and repacking. I have crawled around on the Viking and it seems quite tough and well built. The higher windage of the pro is offset by its ability to self right.......in theory.
Chris