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Ergo
08-25-2008, 03:33 PM
An interesting thing happened on the way to Half Moon Bay on Saturday. In fact, it happened at the start. Ergo was involved in a low impact collision at the starting line. Like most of the boats in our start, we set up outboard of the X buoy and headed for the start by sailing in parallel to the starting line about two minutes before the gun. One boat was above us and we were slightly overlapped.

About the time the windward boat started passing the buoy another boat, to leeward, made a move to the line and we came up as far as we could without hitting the windward boat. The windward boat couldn’t go up without hitting the buoy. The leeward boat kept coming and basically made Ergo the meat in a boat sandwich. It was more of a kiss than a hit but still produced cries of protest and a few choice words from me.

The threatened protest by the leeward boat wasn’t filed. No harm; no fowl, I guess.

I really gave thought to posting anything about this because I’m not long on patience when it comes to sea lawyers and whiners. I mentioned it to a skipper I really respect and she said that I should because the incident was worth thinking about.

The leeward boat had rights. Ergo and the windward boat did not have any room to honor those rights. The windward boat was against the buoy and Ergo was overlapped inches from her. We had no where to go to give the leeward boat her rights. Who should have done what? That’s the sea lawyer question and not the one I’m interested in parsing.

What I’d like to hear some opinions on has to do with how aggressively should rights be pushed in a shorthanded race. I’ve done a few races singlehanded against crewed boats and the starts weren’t fun. At times I felt more like a hazard to navigation than a competitor.

I’ve crewed on very competitive boats in very competitive fleets and the rules were tactical tools to use against the competition. In the SSS races I’ve done I give the other boats a lot of slack and would not scream “protest” unless I saw another boat doing something really bad like missing a mark or purposely ignoring a rule just to win. It’s almost an SSS tradition that protests aren’t welcome.

So, what is the thinking on this kind of issue? We certainly don’t want to open the “rule change” can of worms but how aggressive should shorthanded skippers be about enforcing rules written for crewed boats?

Bill Merrick

tiger beetle
08-25-2008, 05:23 PM
Hi Bill -

Our sailing conduct occurs under the Racing Rules of Sailing.

Once a rule is transgressed it is each skipper's responsibility to 'fix' the transgression. In our case this means the boats that fouled get to do some sort of penalty, protest the other boat, or withdraw from the race.

That said, I agree with you - there is a time and place for playing hardball with the rules, and an SSS race start line is perhaps not the smartest place to do that as it's relatively easy to cause mass confusion, loss of boat control, and then a serious collision can occur.

I expect that each competitor knows the rules (at least the basic ones) and will follow the rules. At which point it becomes my decision whether or not to let someone else get into a position from which they can controll me.

Unfortunately for Ergo, the leeward boat is the one that gets to decide how hard to enforce the rules. I watched the line of starboard boats reaching towards the pin and that is a weak way to start a race as each boat in that line has handed out a free-pass to any boat set up to leeward and come in cleanly on starboard from below and take out the entire parade of barging boats.

That's why, at that start, I was nowhere near the starboard parade. I set up to leeward and came in on port, intentionally late (though more late than I wanted to be), to let the starboard bargers clear the pin such that I could sail through on my port tack and get out into the ebb (without having to throw in a tack on the start line).

About the only rule I will not push is leeward rights when the weather boat has a spinnaker up - I try hard to never cut off a singlehander when they are flying a spinnaker.

- rob/beetle

BobJ
08-25-2008, 08:51 PM
"What I’d like to hear some opinions on has to do with how aggressively should rights be pushed in a shorthanded race" . . . "what is the thinking on this kind of issue? We certainly don’t want to open the “rule change” can of worms but how aggressive should shorthanded skippers be about enforcing rules written for crewed boats?"

This is a great topic. My opinions are:

1) The basic rules were not written just for crewed boats, they were written for all sailboat right-of-way situations, even non-racing. These basic rules include windward keeping clear of leeward. The barging start situation you described is a violation of this basic rule.

2) Some years ago one of the largest one-design fleets on the Bay gained the reputation of being a "bumper boat" fleet. There were numerous collisions where boats were damaged, and insurance rates for boats in that class went up. We don't want SSS to get the same reputation.

3) While I agree that some of the rules can be used for tactical advantage, the basic rules exist to prevent collisions. All of us need to know and apply the basic rules. HERE THEY ARE, from Don Becker, U.S. Sailing Sr. Judge:

"Quite simply:
Port keeps clear of starboard.
Windward keeps clear of leeward.
The boat astern keeps clear of the boat ahead.
A boat tacking keeps clear of one that is not.
Avoid collisions.
If you gain right of way or change course, give the other boat time to keep clear.
The inside boat(s) at two boat lengths from the mark is entitled to room to round the mark.
A boat that is not racing keeps clear.
If you have violated one of these, take a penalty.

This covers 95% of the situations out there."

4) The overarching rule is to avoid collisions. Recognizing that we are racing shorthanded, we need to assume the other boat doesn't see us and we should be prepared to give way, even when we have rights. But then the boat who should have kept clear needs to do their 720.

5) Barging is presuming on the boats starting properly below the line and should be strongly discouraged. If you are shorthanded and close to laying the windward end of the line, I will probably let you through. If you are reaching in at speed, assuming I will let you squeeze in between me and the mark, I will shut the door and you will have to go below me, or above the mark. Count on it.

solosailor
08-26-2008, 08:41 AM
5) Barging is presuming on the boats starting properly below the line and should be strongly discouraged. If you are shorthanded and close to laying the windward end of the line, I will probably let you through. If you are reaching in at speed, assuming I will let you squeeze in between me and the mark, I will shut the door and you will have to go below me, or above the mark. Count on it.There are two things to remember in this situation. First, yes the leward boat has rights so that boat can keep coming up until closed hauled and force both of the other windward boats to go above the mark or tack away but must give plenty of warning and give 'room and opportunity' for those windward boats. The most important thing to remember is once the starting gun goes off and the boats are overlapped the weather boats now have the rights to go under the starting line mark (as an obsgtruction) and cannot be forced outside the mark because of their overlap. So if your going to shut out windward boats that are 'barging' toward the starting line you need to do so before the starting signal.

BobJ
08-26-2008, 08:58 AM
"and the boats are overlapped"
Good points Greg.

This is where Becker's list of "basic rules" works pretty well. You'll notice Greg's clarification brings in two other rules on that short list.

This is also why I wrote "I will probably let you through." If you're that close to me, we're probably both close-hauled and the gun may have gone off. However, if you're reaching in at speed and I'm close-hauled near the line, it's almost impossible for us to be overlapped due to the difference in angles and speeds of our boats.

To go one step further, in Bill's example the boats set up ahead of time to reach in "parallel to the line." They may have intended to barge, and apparently some of them did. If so, this needs to stop.

Critter
08-26-2008, 09:20 AM
[snip] once the starting gun goes off and the boats are overlapped the weather boats now have the rights to go under the starting line mark (as an obsgtruction) and cannot be forced outside the mark because of their overlap.
Greg, I don't think so! Look at 18.1(a). The exception of the starting mark as an obstruction applies until the boats have passed it, not just until the gun.

Bill and I discussed this situation after the race in HMB, and I thought about it more last night and did some reading in Dave Perry's book (Understanding the RRS ...). The conclusions I came to were:

Ergo had an obstruction (another boat, not the X buoy) to windward. Therefore the leeward boat had no right to force him up. (Here's where I disagree with Rob. I don't see how a "chain" of bargers is established; seems like only the one next to the mark has no rights. I'm open to correction.)

If Ergo had not been there, the leeward boat could have squeezed the windward boat out. BUT: If L made a change in course to do so (eg came up from close reach to close hauled), he has to give W room to keep clear (16.1). This means (Perry says) that once W has his nose inside the buoy, L has to let him stay there. If L never made a change in course as he squeezed W out, W is toast. He'd better recognize what's happening early enough to bail out.

Do I have this right? Other opinions?

Critter
08-26-2008, 09:46 AM
More to the point of Bill's original post, I think the key is in 16.1:

When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other
boat room to keep clear.

Basically, shorthanders need more room to keep clear. Bur the rules still apply.

Eyrie
08-27-2008, 07:45 AM
I contacted one of the other boats involved and asked him to present his side:

I am Mike Warren the skipper of Jitterbug , the leeward boat in question. This is my perspective on the "incident".

We spotted the boats setting up to reach down the line a few minutes before the start and with the ebb tide could see they were way to high. We set up a bit above lay line (leeward of the crowd) and clear below ( we looked). Jitterbug sailed close hauled toward the line with about 90 seconds to go, we were even a bit high and had to crack off a bit on approach. We started hailing the windward boats well ahead of the start, say 45 seconds , all the weather boats had time to peal off , luff their sails and or go below us. I did not push nearly as close as I would have on a crewed race but with the larger inside boat(s) reaching down deeper and deeper to make the pin in the ebb we had to turn to about a beam reach to try and avoid a collision. We underestimated how fast we could get out of their way and did some bumping maybe 2-3 seconds after the gun. First we all piled up and tapped, then separated about 4' then we got smacked again harder by the boat to weather. I apologize for foul language I used but after that start and the third hit I was very frustrated. As obligated, I haled "protest" to the offending boats the one at the pin did one 360 ( not two) and the "meat" boat had some words for me but no other response. I believe they should have protested the boat to weather of them or done penalty turns. We wanted to get back to the bay after the race more than fill out protest forms so we button hooked the finish and set out kite for a wonderful ride home. In my opinion that was a very sloppy start, short handed or not. Barging the start hoping the leeward boats will "give room" to avoid collision is not an acceptable tactic. We all have an obligation to keep a lookout below, especially when reaching toward the start with "2 minutes to go". As was pointed out there was no overlap due to the sailing angles and that does not apply at the start at any rate.

All said I know all involved are good people and competent competitors. We all have made misjudgments, and missed things we should have seen the thing is to learn from them. I appreciate and respect the opinions of all involved and will be happy to continue the discussion over a beer at any time.

Best Wishes, Mike

Ergo
08-27-2008, 11:46 AM
Hi Mike,

Thanks for the benefit of the doubt and when I see you I'll buy the beer.

When I talked to Eyrie about this, one of the things that came up was perspective. From your perspective I was barging; from mine I was just looking for a place to set up for the start. When I went outside the pin before the gun I wasn't trying to be clever. I was looking for a clean start not taking anyone out. Before this discussion, I'd never even heard of "barging".

I totally believe you when you say that you started hailing me in time for me go up before the start but I never knew you existed before we were overlapped with the windward boat and she was overlapped with the pin. That's my fault I was focused on the boat to windward of me and didn't know you were coming up. When I looked before we turned for the line, I didn't see anything that looked like a conflict.

Anyway, sorry for the salty language. I at least owe you the beer.

I'm glad I posted this question. The feedback has been very helpful and I'll be better because of it.

Bill Merrick

BobJ
08-27-2008, 12:29 PM
Hearing Bill's perspective makes me think I stated the case too strongly that the boats "intended to barge." Sorry about that - here's where that came from (for what it's worth):

Many years ago I raced in a fleet of small boats on a lake. Because space was tight, the R/C would set the "boat end" of the line fairly close to shore (where they stood). When I joined the fleet, the habit for most of them was to broad reach down the beach to that boat-end starting mark and then daisy-wheel around it and cross the line - barging to the extreme.

Being the obnoxious SOB that I was in my younger years (I'm MUCH better now!??!), I decided to be the "catalyst for change" in their starting habits. I began by talking about it ashore, but since I was the new guy I was ignored. Then I decided to start properly on starboard, at the boat end, and make them go around me (giving them a "visual," as it were). That did not go over well either.

I did finish out the season with that group but didn't go back the next year. Last I knew the majority of the fleet was still starting that way.

Anyway, now at least the readers of this board have been alerted to the issue. We still don't have the rules about it quite right: the close-hauled boat below the line (the good guy) can go as high as head-to-wind before the gun ("closing the door") but only as high as a close-hauled course after the gun. I'm not as clear on the third boat being an obstruction - I'll have to look that one up.

solosailor
08-27-2008, 04:38 PM
Look at 18.1(a). The exception of the starting mark as an obstruction applies until the boats have passed it, not just until the gun.The inside Overlap I mentioned was for once the gun goes off. Before the start the leward boat only needs to give you 'Room and Opportunity' to get the heck out of there i.e. Tack Away - this 'close the door' move is quite typical in fleet racing, but once the start signal goes off you can't force them to tack away if obstructed by the committee boat. Once the gun goes off the windward/overlapped boat has rights to go between the leward boat and the pin/committee boat (a legal barge). If Ragtime was asking them to clear out and neither boat did so in a timely manor before the staring signal went off to 'clear his lane' then they are both worthy of a protest. That's the way I always understood it.

BobJ
08-27-2008, 04:45 PM
Well actually Ragtime! was on a truck at the time and I was crewing on the mighty Blueberry. Jitterbug was the leeward boat.

I was just sayin' that I WOULDA closed the door - maybe.

solosailor
08-27-2008, 04:55 PM
Look at 18.1(a). The exception of the starting mark as an obstruction applies until the boats have passed it, not just until the gun.The inside Overlap I mentioned was for once the gun goes off. Before the start the leward boat only needs to give you 'Room and Opportunity' to get the heck out of there i.e. Tack Away - this 'close the door' move is quite typical in fleet racing, but once the start signal goes off you can't force them to tack away if obstructed by the committee boat. Once the gun goes off the windward/overlapped boat has rights to go between the leward boat and the pin/committee boat (a legal barge). If Ragtime was asking them to clear out and neither boat did so in a timely manor before the staring signal went off to 'clear his lane' then they are both worthy of a protest. That's the way I always understood it.

Thom
08-28-2008, 09:42 AM
Since my boat doesn't point like your boats, I have some experience:(

The boat that is close hauled heading directly at the pin on Stbd has rights. Boats below him or her that can sail higher close hauled course have better rights. The boat that is sailing higher close hauled is an obstruction to the lower sailing closehauled boat (a situation I am in a lot--windward boat keep clear). I have to request room to tack occasionally right after a start or just before because I have to tack away from that obstruction.

Folks who are trying to "get in" between the two close hauled boats and the pin have no rights (pin is not an obstruction).

Since my boat is 20 ft wide and accelerates pretty well, I try (like Rob) to keep clear and give others plenty of room--but marks and starts are always the most "exciting" parts of races.

Thom
08-28-2008, 06:57 PM
Particularly the significant difference between asymmetric spinnakers and symmetric spinnakers.

Anyone want to opine about the situation where a symmetric equipped boat is sailing its proper course toward the next mark (usually close to right at it), but an asymmetric boat on it's proper course (not right at it--sometimes not even close) overlap?

:eek: