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BobJ
01-19-2009, 06:20 PM
Subsequent changes in the 2009 SSI's made my initial post and the early part of this thread somewhat irrelevant. Go to Max's posts at Post #33 or #34 to see the current deal.

The tail end of this thread talks about various MOB gear, which is now required for doublehanders in our ocean races (SHF and HMB). LongPac and TransPac will still have their own equipment requirements.

solosailor
01-19-2009, 09:32 PM
SSS's Standing Sailing Instructions now require ISAF 2008/09 OSR Catagory 2 equipment for races outside the Gate.As I am currently getting ready for the Newport to Cabo race I can attest that Cat 2 requirements are pretty steep. Liferaft, EPIRB, many small rules that I don't even want to get into. Is this really true? If so there will be very few out racing with us from now on. Cat 2 races are LONG DISTANCE. I thought we used a similar set of requirements that the OYRA uses. Someone please explain this decision.

solosailor
01-19-2009, 09:45 PM
6.01 The skipper of each boat shall have CPR and first Aid training. Better get certified before the Farallones so you can treat yourself !

solosailor
01-19-2009, 10:16 PM
Looks like I will not be able to race in the OYRA either !

My boat is 30.75 so:
3.18 Toilet permanently installed. □ (For boats under 30’ a fitted bucket is acceptable.) - so I HAVE TO INSTALL A TOILET TO RACE!
3.19 Bunks permanently installed. OYRA requirement: two full sized berths.
3.21 At least one securely installed water tank discharging through a pump. At least 2.4 gallons of water for emergency use in a dedicated container or containers. - so I HAVE TO INSTALL A TANK & SINK TO RACE!
4.15 Emergency steering. Emergency tiller (if required). □ ____ 3.28 Engines, Generators, Fuel
3.28.1 A securely covered inboard propulsion engine shall be provided
together with permanently installed exhaust and fuel supply systems
and fuel tank(s)
3.28.2 A propulsion engine shall be provided, EITHER as a securely covered
inboard engine together with permanently installed exhaust and fuel
supply systems and fuel tank(s) OR in a multihull of less than 12.0m
(39.4ft) as an outboard engine with associated tanks and fuel supply
systems, all securely fastened.
So I have to install an inboard engine as well? GEEZ!
Full complement of SOLAS flares, etc, etc, etc.

BobJ
01-19-2009, 10:21 PM
Greg, the first aid training is one of four items modified by the "SSS Prescriptions":

a. Reserve navigation lights are not required (OSR 3.27.4)
b. Sufficient fuel to motor at hull speed for four hours (vs. eight in OSR 3.28.3b)
c. First aid training is strongly recommended, but NOT required (OSR 4.08.3)
d. Multihulls shall carry a drogue for speed management

I believe OYRA also requires Cat. 2 compliance but only inspects for certain items, and waives more requirements. The new SSI's state that the SSS prescriptions prevail (i.e. mandate the higher equipment requirements).

Does this mean liferafts and EPIRBs will be required for the Farallones and Half Moon Bay races?

What will the minimum stability index be? What about boats who've raced with SSS for years who may not meet the index?

The OSR multihull structural requirements are onerous - does this mean no more multihulls in SSS races outside the Gate?

I'm not criticizing or making any judgements, but I'd sure like to know what the board is planning to do with this.

solosailor
01-19-2009, 10:22 PM
The OYRA only gives a waiver for outboard motors to boats UNDER 30ft. So I can't race Ocean SSS or OYRA anymore.

BobJ
01-19-2009, 10:27 PM
For SSS, let's wait and hear the background on this.

As of this afternoon, OYRA hadn't posted the 2009 equipment requirements. Are you looking at 2008's?

solosailor
01-19-2009, 10:34 PM
The OYRA waives the liferaft and EPIRB requirements. Seems I need to find out the stability of my two boats as well !

solosailor
01-19-2009, 10:39 PM
From the ISAF definition: "Races of extended duration....."

I believe only the LongPac/SHTP would qualify as such in the SSS.

BobJ
01-19-2009, 10:45 PM
Maybe that's all we have here - a typo. Would Cat. 3 make sense?

solosailor
01-19-2009, 10:47 PM
Better check those clipping points. Besides jackstay, you need clipping points for 2/3 of the crew - before coming on deck, etc.

solosailor
01-19-2009, 10:50 PM
Boats over 28ft need TWO anchors.

solosailor
01-19-2009, 10:52 PM
Basically two sets of lifebuoys with lights, etc.

solosailor
01-19-2009, 10:56 PM
If you have not attended the 'Safety at Sea' seminar in the last 5 years you can't come play either: "at least 30%, but not fewer than two members of the crew...."

So you can't really do the Singlehanded Farallones at all Solo since two are the minimum, so I guess we won't have a race this year?

Even if we waive the 'two crew' requirement, how many SSS folks have done the Safety at Sea seminar?

solosailor
01-19-2009, 11:02 PM
We now have a throw out race? I don't recall that before?

Critter
01-20-2009, 09:54 AM
Guys,

It's not a typo. We mean Cat. 2.

I'm not happy about this situation. The Coast Guard is pushing hard on this in the wake of the loss of Daisy last year. I was hoping to be involved in the talks between YRA and USCG, but I wasn't invited. After that there was a meeting at YRA of all the clubs that run ocean races, and everybody pretty much went along with the requirements. I've been scrambling for some traction to mitigate the requirements, but I can't find anyone to stand with me. (Haven't heard from BAMA, who might be our closest ally.) The exceptions that I've written into our rules somewhat undercut the unified rules that YRA is trying to put forward, anyway.

Bob and Greg, maybe you guys have enough experience and authority to work with me to push back a little.

Anyone who raced OYRA last year knows that they already had some pretty stringent requirements that were based on Cat. 2. When I wrote that the SSS prescriptions override the OYRA prescriptions, I meant that we go along with all OYRA's exceptions to the OSRs *AND* add a few more exemptions of our own.

Help me out here. How about if we get together after the Three Bridge skippers meeting and do a little planning?

PS, Greg, we've always had a throwout in the season scoring as long as I've been involved. This year, after seeing how people who focused on the Transpac ended way down in the points, we decided that the Transpac/Longpac score could not be thrown out. And a DNS in that race counts double.

Max

BobJ
01-20-2009, 10:16 AM
"How about if we get together after the Three Bridge skippers meeting and do a little planning?"


I'm happy to do that Max. I don't have the history with SSS that others do, but will contribute what I can.

Is there a report somewhere on what sank Daisy? If so, does it show that Daisy's full compliance with Cat 2 requirements would have prevented her sinking? (Rhetorical questions I know.)

Critter
01-20-2009, 10:18 AM
BTW, here are the OYRA prescriptions/exemptions for 2009:

2.03.3 Navigation lights shall be shown from Sunset to Sunrise and when visibility is reduced to two miles or
less. ■____
3.08 Hatch Boards shall be in good condition with means to secure. ■____ Deck Hatch shall be water tight. ■____
Locker Hatch shall be securable. ■____
3.14 For boats less than 30’ the requirement for lifelines and pulpits is waived provided jackstays are installed. ■____
3.18 Toilet permanently installed. For boats under 30’ a fitted bucket is acceptable. ■___
3.20 Cooking stove capable of being safely operated at sea is recommended but not required.
3.21.1 The requirement for permanently installed delivery pump and water tank is waived. ■___
3.23 Boats under 30’ at least one permanently installed manual bilge pump of 10 gallons per minute capacity operable with all hatches and companionways closed. ■___
3.28 The requirement for permanently installed propulsion engine and fuel tanks is waived for boats under 30’. Outboard engines and fuel for eight hours of operation meeting the performance specifications are required. ■____
3.29 Cell phone in a waterproof container must be carried on each yacht. ■___
4.19 The Requirement for a 406 MHz EPIRB is currently waived, but it is strongly recommended that each vessel carry one. An EPIRB, or its equivalent technology will be required in the future. See the YRA Website (www.yra.org) for information on purchasing or renting an EPIRB.
4.20 Unless specifically designated in the Notice of Race the requirement for a life raft is waived. For specifically designated long distance Offshore Races, a life raft capable of carrying the entire crew which must have a valid annual certificate from the manufacturer or an approved agent certifying that it has been inspected and stating the official capacity of the raft that shall not be exceeded.
4.21 Grab bags requirements are waived.
4.23 OYRA prescribes that for yachts under its jurisdiction, SOLAS flares may not be more than 6 years old except orange smoke flares which may not be more than 10 years old.
4.26 Storm & heavy weather sail requirements are waived and the following substituted:
One heavy weather jib sized for the boat is required if boat is equipped to carry a headsail. ■____
Main sails sufficiently strong for heavy weather and able to be reefed with adequate trimming devices to handle heavy weather conditions. ■____
5.04 OYRA requires Foul Weather Suit for each crewmember. ■____
5.05 OYRA requires a knife for each crewmember. ■____
5.08 OYRA requires a Man-Overboard Practice . ■____
6.01 Safety @ Sea training is strongly recommended. ■____

solosailor
01-20-2009, 10:36 AM
Wow, an a single boat that never comes out and races ('Daisy'), their boat comes apart (most likely) and sinks and now we all get to pay the price.

Did they FORCE us to use these rules (i.e. 'you will not get a permit')??

Again, Cat 2 is defined by ISAF as 'Races of extended duration'.... which NONE of our races are except the LongPac and SHTP. This is Big Brother gone racing. ANYONE with a boat can exit the Gate and go to the Farallones without ANY of this NONSENCE but our organization, with a excellent, NO ACTUALLY PERFECT safety record has this imposed upon us.

BAMA has the worst safety record so I wouldn't use them.

Yes, lets meet before the SSS 3BF Meeting. The earlier the better. I will be at the OYC @ 6pm Wednesday night - anyone else that wants to meet there, please come.

solosailor
01-20-2009, 10:58 AM
I just got off the phone with Richard Calabrese the OYRA President and Mimimum Equipment Officer and he will be meeting me at the Oakland Yacht Club before the 3BF Skippers Meeting. We are trying to give this the ample time it needs so we will be there @ 6pm. Anyone is welcome to attend.

FYI, both my Black Soo and Azzura 310 (both proven ocean boats and Hawaii vets/winners) DO NOT meet the OYRA Cat 2 rules even with the exception such as: outboard motor ONLY for boats under 30ft, etc. He said 'we would give you an exception' but that IS NOT what the written rules state so if I wanted to race and did not call him I would not have found out that they WILL give exceptions beyond the written rules (which makes no sense).

He also thought that the 'Safety at Sea' was a 'should' and not 'shall' as it is written, which he said he will change for sure for the OYRA.

Ergo
01-20-2009, 11:24 AM
Thanks for the input. The new SSS board is indeed reading this and other information. The new (2009) suggested requirements were very recently (early January) released and we posted them, with some modifications, in order to get the SSS 2009 package out. We are currently pretty focused on the TBF and making the transition to on-line registration.

Speaking for myself, I am not going to reply to every post on the Forum as soon as it's put up. I read the Forum at least once a day and wait for whatever trends that are going to surface to surface through the discussion.
I learned this by watching how issues were handled by the 2008 Race Chair before the 2008 SHTP. Issues like the ever popular SSB requirement were discussed ad nasium before the NOR was published.

Unfortunately, we don't have the luxury of time to preview every issue in launching the regular season. We get slammed with transitioning to a new board, re-registering everyone, doing a budget, confirming the race venues for the season, finding the storage locker, recruiting volunteers for the race deck, getting speakers for the skippers' meetings, talking to the trophy and t-shirt vendors, and making sure we are able to pull off the biggest race of the year without embarrassing outselves.

Please be patient folks. We welcome feedback and I know that the people who are getting excited/concerned are many of the same people who have stepped up big time in the past and are responsible for the past success and accomplishments of the SSS.

The new board isn't out to re-invent the wheel and we're not going to do anything to compromise the organization. Please continue to help us with your opinions and suggestions. We need and appreciate the help. But, also please refrain from sarcastic remarks and hyperbole. It's not helpful and, being human, may inspire me to match you - also not helpful.

Looking forward to a great 2009 season.

Bill Merrick
SSS Commodore

solosailor
01-20-2009, 11:57 AM
The YRA office is going to try to get a copy of the proposed new 2009 exception list to me by tomorrow.

She did say it had exceptions for the 'Safety at Sea' seminar for one thing. She did state the the Coast Guard wanted even stronger regulations when they had their meeting.

It will be good to sit down and figure out the actual requirements after the new OYRA and SSS exceptions are taken into account so our members will know exactly what they need to meet the rules.

BobJ
01-20-2009, 12:25 PM
Thanks for your responsiveness - I'll be there.

Ergo
01-20-2009, 01:01 PM
Obviously, we need to take a closer look. I mistakenly thought it would keep until we got past the TBF.

Going forward, following the meeting with YRA tomorrow, I'll appoint a small committee to review the YRA regs and make recommendations about what we can agree to, modify or reject.

Greg Nelsen has done a lot of the spade work already in researching the regs, USCG requirements, etc. and will head the committee.

The committee will make their recommendations to the SSS board and the board will act on their recommendations and post the final requirements on the web-site by the end of February.

Bill Merrick

AlanH
01-20-2009, 02:10 PM
I'll be there at 6:00.

Travieso
01-20-2009, 02:55 PM
I'll try to be there as well.

dan

AlanH
01-23-2009, 01:13 PM
work got in the way and it was 7:30 before I got there....what's the news?

Warriors Wish
01-23-2009, 03:23 PM
Its 40 degrees but the first snow fall has melted. I am getting ready for the Bermuda 1-2 and hoping the economy changes soon enough for me to race the SHTP again. I am watching what you are going through with new saftey regs and the USCG. I am wondering why its regional problem and not national one. Your efforts are certainly appreciated.

Keep the faith, Don

BobJ
01-23-2009, 05:20 PM
Hey Don - good to hear from you. Good luck in the B1-2.

We had a good meeting Wednesday evening (before the 3BF meeting). Pat Broderick (YRA Chair) and Laura Paul-Munoz took some time to describe a meeting with the Coast Guard last year, which took place because of the Daisy tragedy in IYC's DH Lightship Race.

As Bill (SSS's Commodore) described would happen (post #24 above), a committee of SSS'ers was formed to compare SSS's 2008 requirements, the 2009 OYRA requirements, possibly PacCup's requirements, and the ISAF's OSR Cat 2 reg's. The committee will develop a list and/or prescription, based on OSR Cat 2, that is appropriate to SSS and the shorthanded aspect of our races. This information will be presented to the SSS board for approval and the 2009 SSI's will be amended as soon as possible thereafter. The committee is aware of the racers' need to have time to prepare for the SSS Farallones and Half Moon Bay races. As in the past, the LongPac and 2010 SH TransPac will have their own requirements.

The CG had also recommended that a more uniform communication protocol be established for the various ocean races (OYRA, BAMA, IYC and SSS). After reviewing a communication protocol written by YRA, the group concluded that SSS was already complying with it.

Thanks to all for coming early and participating. The above is my opinion/interpretation of the discussion so if you have further questions, please direct them to one of the board members.

Ergo
01-24-2009, 11:45 AM
I was just finishing a writeup about the meeting when I read Bob's. Good job, Bob. Good summation and I have nothing more to add except that Greg's committee is also going to take a harder look at what doublehanded boats may need that singlehanded boats don't, e.g. MOB pole - dosen't make a lot of sense for a singlehanded boat but is a very good piece of equipment for a doublehanded boat.

Don, good luck in the Bermuda 1-2. Semper Fi, Dude.

I think this issue has popped up here in the Bay Area because of the loss of Daisey last year in a doublehanded race that had a mark outside the Gate. Two sailors were lost and it generated a lot of press. The USCG report on the loss is expected within the next few months but from what I've read, it's unlikely that any new information will surface and equally unlikely that the exact circumstances of and reasons for the sinking will ever be known.

Bill Merrick

pogen
02-27-2009, 11:41 AM
BUMP.

I am fitting out for some coastal events like Spinnaker Cup, and eventually for Pac Cup 2010, so I am very interested in the new regs.

In pursuit of this I am going to get my CPR/FirstAid cert in a couple of weeks, for example, and I will be getting personal strobes, an MOB pole etc. etc. etc.

The costs add up very quickly. For example, a little stainless clip that is just a small part of the MOB pole attachment hardware is $30 from Defender.

Is there an update on the situation?

Thanks

David
Olson 34 Temerity
Alameda

Critter
02-27-2009, 11:49 PM
Is there an update on the situation?



David, look at Commodore Ergo's post in the TransPac forum. That's the best update I've seen. Sounds like we're a touch behind the goal of posting the requirements by Feb 28, but it shouldn't be much longer.

I'm as eager as anyone to see the specifics, so that we can put out a final revision of the SSIs.

In case it isn't clear, I'm pretty sure that the mandatory inspection will apply only to the TransPac and LongPac.

Max

Critter
03-01-2009, 03:17 PM
I've uploaded the revised 2009 Standing Sailing Instructions, incorporating the new safety equipment requirements, to Regatta Manager. If you're cleverer than I, you may be able to find and view them there.

They should also be available on our home website shortly.

The Category 2 references are gone. Compared to last year, there are just a few additions for our ocean races. For example,
- 25 watt VHF required
- your alternate form of propulsion must be capable of driving the boat at the square root of the waterline length. A paddle won't cut it.
- MOB pole and Lifesling required for doublehanders
- Hatch boards must be tethered.

Max

Critter
03-02-2009, 11:53 AM
The revised Standing Sailing Instructions are now available at Regatta Manager (on the Corinthian Race page) and on www.sfbaysss.org.

Please note a few changes in addition to the offshore safety equipment:

1. The Castro Rock restriction has been changed to a line connecting Castro Rock buoy and two buoys near Richmond Long Wharf: G "3" and R "2". You must stay to the west of this "fence" at all times. Same idea as the Pinole Shoal channel, where we stay south of the line of buoys.

2. A minor point: you can't wait until seeing the weather on race day to decide whether to race in the non-spinnaker class. Unless you or we made a mistake in your entry, or your crew drops out and you change from doublehanded to singlehanded, you're committed to your class choice as of the entry deadline.

3. In computing your average on-the-water score to give you points for working RC, we don't throw out your worst score. Your RC credit maintains your average but doesn't improve it.

Max

Travieso
03-04-2009, 12:19 AM
Can we post a banner on the homepage to highlight that there are changes to the SSI, in particular the new restricted area.

I like what you've done there. Its unambiguous and should result in fair racing.

nereida
03-04-2009, 03:05 AM
I've uploaded the revised 2009 Standing Sailing Instructions, incorporating the new safety equipment requirements, ...

- MOB pole and Lifesling required for doublehanders

Max


Just a point here - what if someone has the Jonbuoy module? - which is far better than any pole (ever tried retrieving someone on the end of a pole? - impossible!!) and also way better than the Sling which I understand retrieves someone vertically so they can (as a documented problem) have a heart attack more easily from blood draining downwards (Jonbuoy has person retrieved whilst lying in a horizontal position and so is medically much preferred...) - or is the term 'Lifesling' being used here in a descriptive sense of the type of retrieval system, rather than as a brand name?

We always hope never to have to use these items... but if & when we do, it had better work!

tiger beetle
03-04-2009, 08:34 AM
Just a point here - what if someone has the Jonbuoy module? - which is far better than any pole (ever tried retrieving someone on the end of a pole? - impossible!!) and also way better than the Sling which I understand retrieves someone vertically so they can (as a documented problem) have a heart attack more easily from blood draining downwards (Jonbuoy has person retrieved whilst lying in a horizontal position and so is medically much preferred...) - or is the term 'Lifesling' being used here in a descriptive sense of the type of retrieval system, rather than as a brand name?

We always hope never to have to use these items... but if & when we do, it had better work!

Hi Jeanne -

I'd want to know a little more about the jonbuoy, and how it works, to know if it would be suitable as an alternative to a MOB pole and a lifesling.

The MOB pole provides a spotting device that is raised up above water level (typically 8'), and helps to get the boat back to the person in the water. Obviously the pole is not used to raise the person onto the deck.

The lifesling is an adaptation of a helicopter rescue sling, and may be used to lift a person back onto the deck. It is especially helpful for doublehanded boats, as one person can, via a halyard & a winch, lift a person from the water.

Can you provide some details about the Jonbuoy, and how it might aid in the above to purposes? It appears to be an inflatable device; does one have a jonbuoy inspected and serviced periodically?

This is the photo I ran across in a brief search:
http://www.oceansafety.com/commercial/MOB-Jonbuoy.html

- rob/beetle

nereida
03-04-2009, 09:27 AM
Hi, Rob!
Good to hear from you!
Yes - you've located the precise website for all the info - if you follow your own link in detail, all is made clear!
Jonbuoy module has a strobe light which comes on automatically when module deployed - which is a simple matter of a lever being operated by remaining person left on board (in case of double-handers!) on realizing companion has disappeared overboard. Module is mounted on pushpit and incorporates highly visible inflatable 'arms' with a ring on a strongpoint high up for lifting back person and module on board via boom or similar. So it effectively incorporates both the 'locating pole' and the 'recovery sling' - but doesn't put person being recovered at risk of heart attack due to vertical recovery position. All the person in the water has to do is to get to the module, climb in and then lie down on its cushioned, inflated base, which has a drogue to prevent blowing away in wind.
Of course, all this excellent safety and highly-likely recovery possibility comes at a price - and, yes, like liferafts, it requires regular servicing. But for anyone who values the possibility of achieving a successful, simple, recovery attempt (and their partner surviving it!) - it makes a lot of sense to have one!! And yes, you can re-pack them OK - I've done it!! (with a fresh cylinder). If any more questions,... I'm on-line here in Sweden.... so fire away!!
Cheers,

Critter
03-04-2009, 10:14 AM
Thanks Jeanne for the input. The requirement for a Lifesling came to me from the safety committee with a lower-case L; I capitalized it. It occurred to me that a generic requirement might be more appropriate than a specific brand, but I wanted to post the rules quickly and not get bogged down in writing specifications. Anyway, OYRA has required a Lifesling (specifically) for a few years and it's a familiar piece of gear.

The Jon Buoy looks like a good alternative, and the MOM (Man Overboard Module?) probably would work also. We could change the wording to "Lifesling or comparable", or list all the acceptable brand names, if anyone wants to research them.

This being the SSS, I'm sure nobody is going to protest if they see a MOM instead of a Lifesling on somebody's rail, but I'd prefer to write a precise rule.

Max

BobJ
03-04-2009, 12:04 PM
To clarify (again), these requirements are for SSS's SH Farallones and Half Moon Bay races. The LongPac and SH TransPac will have their own rules.

From racing OYRA I already have a Lifesling (brand) and MOB pole. I'm not keen on buying another flavor of gear (selfish comment admitted).

There is a Lifesling II which is a bit smaller and I think its polypro line is a little shorter. Either Lifesling model is a fraction of the cost of a MOM-8. I also have Lifesling's dedicated lifting tackle to be hoisted on a halyard. The halyard alone (single purchase) is much harder to use than most people think.

Finally, none of these devices (with retrieval lines) technically meets the Coast Guard's requirement for a Type IV "throwable" accessable to the helmsperson, although I'd be surprised if the CG ever pushed the point in an inspection.

nereida
03-04-2009, 12:25 PM
Hi Max!

I 'Googled' the MOM 8 and 9 - looks as though the MOM9, with its separate inflated 'pole', is a poor half-cousin to the Jonbuoy in that it has a raft so person can get out of the water and be rescued in a prone position (rather than the horseshoe of the MOM8 which gives a vertical position, like the Lifesling, for the person being rescued), but it doesn't have the high 'arms' which hold up the strong attachment point of the Jonbuoy to within easy reach of the person on board, with its equally high light position for excellent visibility. But I suppose the MOM9 is preferable to the MOM8 or Lifesling in that vertical lifting of a possibly hypothermic casualty is to be avoided if possible - note it also requires regular servicing because of the inflation aspect.

Looks as though the OYRA should be considering changing its wording if it excludes better alternatives!! Maybe your wording could be along lines of 'suitable device, such as....., to enable lifting of a casualty out of the water ' - just a thought....! I take it the Lifesling relies on a separate-but-connected, lit Danbuoy for the light to show the casualty's position?

Cheers,

Critter
03-04-2009, 12:40 PM
I take it the Lifesling relies on a separate-but-connected, lit Danbuoy for the light to show the casualty's position?

Actually Lifesling doesn't give any thought to lighting or a Danbuoy (or MOB pole, the more familiar term over here). I guess, since the Lifesling is tethered to the boat, the assumption is that the casualty (or poor bastard, as we call him) is within sight at all times.

When I go out the Gate I rig the Lifesling, tethered to the boat, and tie the horseshoe to the pole. If we'll be out after dark a floating strobe gets tied onto the pole also. The idea is that the horseshoe/pole/strobe get tossed immediately when someone goes over, but we don't deploy the Lifesling until we're back near him with sails down or under control.