PDA

View Full Version : Insurance



Mountain
03-26-2021, 09:46 AM
Any suggestions for reputable boat insurers for the race?

BobJ
03-26-2021, 10:27 AM
This gets asked every race and the short answer is No.

Don't tell them you're singlehanding and make sure there's no exclusion for it. That may get you to 200 nm offshore. Beyond that, you're probably self-insured.

If someone knows differently for a solo race to Hawaii, please let us know.

AZ Sailor
03-27-2021, 09:09 AM
This gets asked every race and the short answer is No.

Don't tell them you're singlehanding and make sure there's no exclusion for it. That may get you to 200 nm offshore. Beyond that, you're probably self-insured.
. . .

Yep, that's my conclusion. My policy says I'm covered in "coastal waters of the US and Canada", and offers no definition of that term. The US exerts authority over its coastal waters out to 200 nm, so arguably I'm covered for the first 200 and last 200 nm of each crossing. Not a definitive answer, but good enough for me.

Stan Pawlak
03-27-2021, 03:52 PM
I concur with what has been said. In 2019 I extended my insurance coverage to Mexico. The addendum came back written with the clause “must have a minimum of three sailors on board.”

Rainbow
03-28-2021, 01:39 PM
Yep, that's my conclusion. My policy says I'm covered in "coastal waters of the US and Canada", and offers no definition of that term. The US exerts authority over its coastal waters out to 200 nm, so arguably I'm covered for the first 200 and last 200 nm of each crossing. Not a definitive answer, but good enough for me.

I found my insurance company (GEICO) interprets their language to mean the policy becomes void and is automatically cancelled for breach of contract if I leave the covered area. They don't consider it just suspended while I'm outside the 200 mile limit, and they don't consider it an active policy just because I re-enter the covered area later. Mine found out, well after the fact, that I had done the 2018 SHTP without telling them and threatened to cancel/not renew just a couple of months ago for 2021. This time I know they are watching both the PACCUP and SHTP sites to see if boats they cover are racing without telling them. It can be a bad thing if they cancel your policy for a breach -- if you try to get coverage later they may consider you a "bad risk" for having broken their rules. This year I'll do what I did do once several years ago, i.e. cancel the policy myself as " no longer needed" when I cross the 200 mile point, then apply for a new policy when I get back, all with the help of my good agent.

seawisdom
03-28-2021, 11:19 PM
I found my insurance company (GEICO) interprets their language to mean the policy becomes void and is automatically cancelled for breach of contract if I leave the covered area. They don't consider it just suspended while I'm outside the 200 mile limit, and they don't consider it an active policy just because I re-enter the covered area later. Mine found out, well after the fact, that I had done the 2018 SHTP without telling them and threatened to cancel/not renew just a couple of months ago for 2021. This time I know they are watching both the PACCUP and SHTP sites to see if boats they cover are racing without telling them. It can be a bad thing if they cancel your policy for a breach -- if you try to get coverage later they may consider you a "bad risk" for having broken their rules. This year I'll do what I did do once several years ago, i.e. cancel the policy myself as " no longer needed" when I cross the 200 mile point, then apply for a new policy when I get back, all with the help of my good agent.
This is also exactly the same thing as what I heard from my insurance. It's better to cancel it right before the race. That's why I would have to get the boat re-surveyed once I get to Kauai for the crew delivery trip home in the original 2020 SHTP race in order to get the boat insured again. In 2021, they don't want to do anything like this at all.

AlanH
03-30-2021, 03:40 AM
Not even Pantaenius?

...though they probably won't cover singlehanders.

sleddog
03-30-2021, 08:32 AM
George McKay on his Capo 30 can't even get insurance to race the Los Angeles Transpac in July with a full crew. Boat "too old (1984)." That other Transpac requires insurance (thankfully not the SHTP). So George has spent a lot of time and money, now withdrawn his entry, and his double axle trailer is available.

solosailor
03-30-2021, 10:09 AM
As I recall in '13 the Transpac dropped the insurance requirement as like 1/3 off the fleet couldn't get coverage. Are they standing firm on this now?

BobJ
03-30-2021, 10:36 AM
$1 million of liability coverage. No mention of hull coverage so maybe a big umbrella policy could work. See 4.3.1 (L):

https://transpacyc.com/assets/documents/2021/NOR-Transpac-2021.pdf

But 'ya know - this is another thing that sets our race apart. You don't have to have an engine, and you don't have to have insurance. May it long be so!

sleddog
03-30-2021, 12:54 PM
$1 million of liability coverage. No mention of hull coverage so maybe a big umbrella policy could work. See 4.3.1 (L):

https://transpacyc.com/assets/documents/2021/NOR-Transpac-2021.pdf
But 'ya know - this is another thing that sets our race apart. You don't have to have an engine, and you don't have to have insurance. May it long be so!

I don't have a dog in this hunt. However, below are two recent letters from George McCormick to his 4 crew explaining the difficulties he was experiencing in acquiring insurance required for the upcoming Los Angeles to Honolulu Race.

~~~~~~~~~~~~/)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The latest hurdle that I am having difficulty overcoming is the insurance requirement for the TPYC. I had my insurance specialist call around for me and she was unable to find an underwriter that would sign me up. I contacted the insurance company that is sponsoring the Transpac and they turned me down:
Thank you for completing our Online Yacht Insurance Request form for yacht insurance coverage. Unfortunately, our markets are unable to offer terms due to your vessel’s age, value, navigation limits required. I am sorry we are unable to assist.
I found another agent who said that he would like to help, but needs a survey before submitting to the underwriters. I sent an email to the TPYC to see if they have any recommendations or if they could get me in touch with a competitor with a Cal 40 (same value, even older boat). If anyone has any connections with a boat insurer, please let me know. George

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I just got a call from one of the Transpac race managers who also is an insurance broker. He was very pleasant and tried to work through the problem with me and said that if Novamar was unable to find a policy for us, no one could. He also explained that the Cal 40s have a “history “ of doing this race where as Transpac races are “out of the ordinary “ for me and my boat. He said that if I had a business like the owner of Pyewacket, that I could threaten to move my insurance elsewhere if they didn’t cover my boat as well. I said that I don’t really have that kind of leverage Finally he said that he always recommends finding insurance before leaping into a big project like the Transpac. I thanked him for his advice.
It really wouldn’t matter if we still wanted to do the Transpac, the insurance would be a deal breaker. (Although he liked the idea of the bond, he didn’t think the board would accept it).

BobJ
03-30-2021, 02:05 PM
An avid racer we both know offered to fund a TP campaign for Ragtime!. Rags was also 30' but much newer than George's boat, and at the time already had two SHTPs and a return trip under her keel.

But as I studied the stability and other requirements, it became apparent that the TPYC had crafted them to include certain boats and exclude others. My J/92 could not be made to qualify.

Again, long live the Singlehanded Transpac - er, the Singlehanded Transpacific Yacht Race. Run what 'ya brung.

sleddog
03-31-2021, 12:12 PM
But as I studied the stability and other requirements, it became apparent that the TPYC had crafted them to include certain boats and exclude others. My J/92 could not be made to qualify. Again, long live the Singlehanded Transpac - er, the Singlehanded Transpacific Yacht Race. Run what 'ya brung.

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger...I attempted to enter WILDFLOWER in the LA Transpac. Was told my boat was "too slow." Feeling a bit of insult, I replied my boat had been fast enough to win the Pac Cup, and that I would accept whatever reduction in handicap made me fast enough. Basically was told to get lost.

Ironically, a month later, after 40 years of TPYC membership, I was invited to be on the Board of Directors, an exclusive club dominated by PYEWACKET crew. My reply was something like "you want me to help run your race, yet I am not eligible to enter?"

Somebody should make shirts that say " SINGLEHANDED TRANSPAC: 'YA RUN WHAT 'YA BRUNG" on the back, and "BUGLIGHTER" on the front pocket.

Extra scoop of Macapuno for whomever remembers what famous Bay racer drew and printed these infamous T-shirts for the '96 Pacific Cup:

6371

AntsUiga
03-31-2021, 04:40 PM
Don't feel like the Lone Ranger...I attempted to enter WILDFLOWER in the LA Transpac. Was told my boat was "too slow." Feeling a bit of insult, I replied my boat had been fast enough to win the Pac Cup, and that I would accept whatever reduction in handicap made me fast enough. Basically was told to get lost.

Ironically, a month later, after 40 years of TPYC membership, I was invited to be on the Board of Directors, an exclusive club dominated by PYEWACKET crew. My reply was something like "you want me to help run your race, yet I am not eligible to enter?"

Somebody should make shirts that say " SINGLEHANDED TRANSPAC: 'YA RUN WHAT 'YA BRUNG" on the back, and "BUGLIGHTER" on the front pocket.

Extra scoop of Macapuno for whomever remembers

what famous Bay racer drew and printed these infamous T-shirts for the '96 Pacific Cup:

6371

As I read the question, I realized I had no clue. But, I will guess Peter Costello since he spent much time on SSS graphics (but wasn’t a noted SF Bay racer that I know of).

I encourage Peter to be remembered, even tbough he has passed.

Ants

sleddog
03-31-2021, 05:31 PM
As I read the question, I realized I had no clue. But, I will guess Peter Costello since he spent much time on SSS graphics (but wasn’t a noted SF Bay racer that I know of).
I encourage Peter to be remembered, even tbough he has passed.
Ants

Hi Ants,
Peter was a good friend, wonderful artist, and all around good guy. We miss him and Patricia. Sorry, but Peter did not do the above T-shirt. Guess again if you wish.
PS. what are you doing driving to NJ? On your scooter, hihi? Are the dogs aboard?

Dazzler
03-31-2021, 06:07 PM
Phil Frank

sleddog
03-31-2021, 06:39 PM
Phil Frank

Sorry Tom, not Phil Frank.

This sailor regularly competes in SSS, often finishing near the top.

Jonathan Gutoff
03-31-2021, 07:37 PM
Jonathan "Bird" Livingston. He races the Wylie 39 Punk Dolphin.

DLC99
03-31-2021, 07:37 PM
Jonathan Livingston on Punk Dolphin

sleddog
03-31-2021, 10:23 PM
Jonathan Livingston on Punk Dolphin

Good grief, we have the first ever, unbreakable tie. Both Jonathan and David answered correctly that it was Jonathan "Birdman" Livingston who drew the cartoons on the 1996 PacCup crew shirts. And the times of their winning posts were both 7:37 pm. What are the chances? Dead heat. OK, I think we can afford an extra scoop of Marianne's Macapuno for both you guys. Well done.

Sorry to be off topic, but there is a wonderful, hilarious backstory to the Squall Busters T-shirt, the first time an Express-27 raced off into the unknown and to Hawaii. Were there controlled substances involved? Probably. You can read this epic here: http://express27.org/articles/squallbusters Would suggest sitting on the floor so you won't fall out of your chair.

Here's a taste of the Squall Busters tape:

Gary: We averaged 16 knots throughout the event. (His voice is hoarse too.)

Jonathan: It was just incredible, bounding from wave top to wave top. In the morning you wouldn't believe what the boat looked like. It has fish skeletons coming out of the scuppers . . . We just tore the skin right off of those fish when they got caught. Man, we had seaweed hanging in the rigging. (Gary is laughing and gasping in the background.) It was just incredible. Our hair was stiff from the salt.

Gary: We looked like a motorcycle gang but instead of bugs we had fish and squid all over the windshield.

Jonathan: Yeah! (Laughs) Man, this poor boat. It's holding up real well. I couldn't believe it. Clifford did the first ever crest-to-crest leap on an Express. He must have been airborne for at least 20 seconds. (Clifford laughs in the background.) We were busting those squalls and they fought back hard. There were heavy casualties suffered on both sides.

mike cunningham
04-01-2021, 06:26 PM
Wow, hopefully Geico does not troll this forum else in addition to getting screwed on my insurance premium every year, I might get cancelled.

Thanks for the great news Cliff Shaw!!

With regard to Transpac insurance, is this just the boat or is there some sort of crew/environmental/other boat liability involved? The reason I ask is that it seems a knowledgeable sailor with some decent funding, appropriate skills in the insurance arena and a taste for some risk could make some money insuring boats the suits won't. Course the premiums would be pretty steep.

JimQuanci
04-04-2021, 11:01 AM
I have been successful getting insurance for Hawaii races for my Cal 40 thru Novamar. But it takes a bit of planning. First putting your annual insurance thru Novamar at least a year before you need the race rider. Its a lot of extra work for them to get you the rider which they will do if you are a regular ongoing customer. Then asking for the rider several months before the race - and you will need a "clean survey" as well as strong crew resumes for both directions. Assume no rig or sail coverage - and a sizable deductable The real insurance need is crew liability. And get the survey done early so you can address survey findings and get the surveyor to resurvey and give you a clean report (negotiate ahead of time with the surveyor that you need this second visit and report. And the rider is not cheap. Over $1k.

As an aside... I did my first Hawaii race in 1986... racing in the same division as Jonathan and Gary on Lightn Up. This is before GPS... before GRIBS... Loran would skip so be 30 miles off (broadcast antennas too "inline")... RDF sort of worked... when making landfall was quite emotional because you had significant doubt about your location... though easy compared to folks like Skip in the '60s when it was DR and celestial (LOPs in Hawaii in the summer are small acute angles so accuracy is pretty low).

seawisdom
04-07-2021, 09:20 PM
I just saw the email for the temporary mooring permits. One of the requirements is item #5.
Current Insurance in Vessel owners name.
A. Must list State of Hawaii as additional insured.
I won't have insurance starting June 30 as my insurance expires and the underwriter will not provide any more coverage while in Hawaii. My impression is that most people are having difficulty with insurance this year.
How are we going to get temporary mooring permit? Is the mooring permit a requirement for this race? Or is this only for sailors who are going to dock/moor their boats in Nawiliwili? If we just leave our boat in Hanalei Bay, do we need a mooring permit?

everydaysailor
04-08-2021, 08:10 AM
"Begining March 1st 2020, all vessels 26' in length and greater operating on State waters will be required to have vessel insurance."
The times they are a changing.

BobJ
04-08-2021, 08:28 AM
I'm sure all those derelict boats at the Ala Wa'i are fully-compliant.

Edit: I was just told that derelicts in the Pearl Harbor area and Lahaina are the primary target of this permit effort. I'll delete the rest of my post so this can get discussed (and hopefully resolved) off the record.
.

everydaysailor
04-08-2021, 09:34 AM
Yup- and derelict boats are the reason behind the new law.

seawisdom
04-08-2021, 11:03 AM
Ouch, I don't see how I can participate in this race without getting insurance coverage in Hawaii. My underwriter just told me that no carrier she knows would underwrite such policy after the SHTP race, not even just a simple liability coverage to satisfy the State of Hawaii. Any ideas? This must be a problem for all participants of SHTP?
It would be a huge shame for all the efforts of preparing for this race and to withdraw because of the lack of insurance in Hawaii.

AZ Sailor
04-08-2021, 11:12 AM
I just saw the email for the temporary mooring permits. One of the requirements is item #5.
Current Insurance in Vessel owners name.
A. Must list State of Hawaii as additional insured.
. . .

FWIW, here is my recent experience with this issue here in Hilo. I did not notify GEICO/BoatUS I was sailing to Hawaii when I departed So Cal at the end of October 2020. Upon arrival I picked a spot in the Reed's Bay anchorage and contacted the local harbor agent to advise of my arrival. After submitting the application for temporary mooring permit for that location I contacted BoatUS to request that they cancel the additional insured rider previously issued for my San Diego marina and issue a new additional insured rider in favor of the "State of Hawaii, DNLR-DBOR." This was done by telephone and the issue of how the boat got from San Diego to Hilo did not come up. There was no hint or suggestion that if I had sailed here they would have cancelled me. Instead, they re-calculated my premium based on the new location, charged my credit card the pro-rated adjustment to the end of the policy term, and promptly emailed me the additional insured statement, which I then passed on to BOR two or three days after submitting the application. I believe that if I returned to San Diego at this point and requested that they change the the additional insured back to a marina there, they would simply do so and credit me a refund on account of the lower premium for a boat in SD vs. HI.

Don't know if this is any help to anyone . . .

seawisdom
04-08-2021, 07:37 PM
So for many of us doing the SHTP, this race could turn into a LongPac with the turning point at Hanalei Bay? Or Bernard Moitessier's "The Long Way"... kind of inspiring if I think of it that way.

JimQuanci
04-09-2021, 08:57 AM
A few months back I was also thinking if the race was cancelled... yes Extra Long LongPac... start and finish at GGB and take Kauai to either side (kinda like an extended Farallones race :-) ). Not much further than SF to Tahiti.

BobJ
04-09-2021, 09:04 AM
Ouch, I don't see how I can participate in this race without getting insurance coverage in Hawaii. My underwriter just told me that no carrier she knows would underwrite such policy after the SHTP race, not even just a simple liability coverage to satisfy the State of Hawaii. Any ideas? This must be a problem for all participants of SHTP?
It would be a huge shame for all the efforts of preparing for this race and to withdraw because of the lack of insurance in Hawaii.

A couple of behind-the-scenes e-mails reminded me that when you are not the target of Hawaii officialdom, enforcement is mostly determined by whether the waves are surfable.

If you're sailing down to Nawiliwili to haul out for shipping, you might call Larry Conklin and ask him about all this. It may also be an issue if you plan to cruise the islands after the race.

Re insuring the boat, most of us recognize that the SHTP is not an insurable activity. Will, your situation is complicated by your need for liability insurance for the return crew. I'd look for a delivery skipper who isn't as concerned about the insurance situation and may do it solo or with one other person (who also isn't worried about the insurance situation). I know of one who delivered a boat back to SF after its keel fell off. That kind of guy.

AlanH
04-09-2021, 09:44 AM
Fingers crossed for everyone re: insurance and Hawaii regulations.

AZ Sailor
04-09-2021, 01:17 PM
So for many of us doing the SHTP, this race could turn into a LongPac with the turning point at Hanalei Bay? Or Bernard Moitessier's "The Long Way"... kind of inspiring if I think of it that way.

You could do it as a two-legged race, allowing provisioning at the turning mark. Everyone would get their 3 days free anchorage, no permit or insurance required, and Morning Star will be on station in Hanalei Bay with her Torqeedo-powered dinghy for water taxi service. And we could take finish times for leg one and start times for leg 2. I'm planning on sailing to Kauai this summer whether there is a race or not, and will be happy to see any of you who want to drop by while I'm there.