Advice needed on liferafts

[GBR3068]

Hi everyone: David posted his slides and notes from the first seminar and I wanted to ask a few questions here. First set of questions is about liferafts prompted by the seminar when David mentioned he did the October live Safety at Sea course at SFYC and explained how hard it was to right a liferaft.

1. First question to David: do you have a contact or even better a schedule for the live Safety at Sea courses? I'm miffed I missed the October one because they dont happen often in the Bay Area.
You really have to hunt around to find details. I looked at https://www.sfyc.org/web/pages/training and didn't see anything.
I looked at https://sas.cruisingclub.org/node/723 and see a calendar entry for:

The San Francisco Yacht Club
Saturday, April 15, 2023

But the links do not appear to work - for me anyway
I tried contacting SFYC and no response.
I looked at https://sailaweigh.org/events.php I *think* they run the courses? but I did not see anything…
I bet others like me want to do some live practice with liferafts and immersion suits and what-not, so if you have a contact that would be great?

2. Follow-on newbie question. I have a 4-person Viking Rescyou that just went in for certification at Sal's Inflatables. Its a valise and I really am not convinced I can get that thing out through the companionway in under 15 seconds. I gather that the real issue is fire over flooding. Anyway questions are:

A. Valise vs Canister?
B. Rescyou vs. Rescuyou Pro vs. others?
C. Where to mount the canister? In the cockpit? and facing inward from the rails or outward?

Sal was really great and his guys showed me several models and let me peek and poke around the inflated liferafts and their emergency kits in the warehouse. I learned a lot. I was thinking of volunteering my liferaft for live practice but Sal said thats not a good idea. They use compressors to control inflation - did not know that.

3. Also not sure this is appropriate to post here, but if I swap from valise to canister I will have an extra liferaft to sell and if anyone needs one for SHTP LMK.

[mpolkabla]

Go to US Sailing and search their subpage for Safety at Sea Courses...

https://www.ussailing.org/education/adult/safety-at-sea-courses-2022/

These can be in person only or a combination of online and then the day of practical (in person) training (including life rafts).

I highly recommend these courses and understand why it is a requirement for the SHTP.

Good luck,
Michael Polkabla
Solstice Cal40 #4

[GBR3068]

Hi Michael: I had already tried that US Sailing page, looked for Bay Area courses and that didn't work; you get the same link to SFYC that is currently a dead end, leading to the class already held this past October.

I did find a clue at this page:
https://www.ussailing.org/education/adult/find-a-course-near-you/

and that was to the organizer for the next SFYC course that I believe is Ashley Perrin and not Sail Aweigh.

Searching on Ashley, I found http://racingyachtmanagement.com and I believe they handle the SFYC courses.

I sent Ashley an email and I did just get a response this morning: "We have to set up registration still check back in a month."

So, that's the answer to my first question: The registration will likely be at https://www.sfyc.org/web/pages/training when ready.

With details likely to be:
The San Francisco Yacht Club
Saturday, April 15, 2023

Mike

PS: Was it you who is getting a net from Synthia for a Cal 40?

[DaveH]

Hi Mike -
I cant recommend enough the in person training - yes, SFYC & Ashley will be doing a session in early spring.
As Michael mentions, there are more than one way of going about this... the hands on training can be part of a 2 day seminar that covers all of the 15units of instruction from the online cours;
OR US Sailing has several offerings where the online course work happens first, and the hands-on component is a one-day supplemental (usually as part of a 2 day class).

Although SFYC and Ashley are good local options, Looking through the US Sailing offerings, I do note one for Long Beach and San Diego YC's in February that may be convenient for those in the southland, as well as several others through the spring (it is a transpac year)
DH

[tiger beetle]

Its a valise and I really am not convinced I can get that thing out through the companionway in under 15 seconds.

Also consider how launching the raft from inside the boat if you were injured - could you still get the life raft up onto the deck? (e.g., with one arm not working).

The life raft should be mounted (ideally) near the center of the boat so it (minimally) increases pitching moment, out of the way, and protected. I went with a canister raft placed ahead of the dodger, a bit aft of the boom vang - I don't walk there so it's not in the way. The raft is not protected there, so it's held in place with padeyes, dacron line, and snapshackles (quick release). I made a Sunbrella cover for the canister - this reduces heat inside the canister and significantly increases life-span of the raft.

I would not mount a raft in the cockpit floor (water can flood the cockpit), plus you might want to walk/stand where the raft is. I do not like pushpit/lifeline mounted rafts as stainless bends easily - you do not want the raft washing away or taking out your lifelines if you take a wave through the cockpit.

As regards the Viking Rescyou Pro, I like the double-arch that supports the canopy. You would prefer the raft to be self-righting, they are not at all easy to right once the ballast bags fill. The double arch helps with righting and provides headroom inside the raft. I have a Zodiac 6 person double arch/tube raft similar in design to the Rescyou Pro. When Sal would recertify the raft I would always go over and sit inside for a few minutes and think about how it would feel offshore, plus sat in some other rafts. I decided I liked the headroom/volume of the double arch.

- rob/beetle

[Critter]

I've always rented liferafts from Sal when they're required -- three or four times, I guess. At least the first time, he told me he did not want me to stow it on deck. Presumably this is for the sake of protection from the sun, as Rob alluded to. So I've always kept it at the foot of the companionway steps. I think I could get it to the lifelines in 30 seconds!

[GBR3068]

So thanks for the advice guys!! I talked at length to Sal too. Based on all the great advice this is what I did:

I went with the RescYou Pro, canister, and mount. So upgraded from the model I had before. Sal said he wouldn't even put his ex-wife in anything else. For those who like me are noobs, I cannot recommend Sal and his crew enough. I did not know what this liferaft shop was that everyone was talking about. They don't have a great website and its hard to find anythng out about them. Just go there! Its a big warehouse in Alameda that is full of commercial liferafts being inspected and tested. This had got to be one of the largest liferaft operations around. Sal's team spent a lot of time showing me liferafts and the differences and what was in them. If you read Tapio's latest report on his sinking in the GGR one of the things he wished he had done was see what was in his liferaft before he used it for real. I now know and have seen what is in my new one.

I dont have a lot of mounting options. I think I am going to have to mount it on the pushpit and Chris at Svendsen's is going to help figure that out. Sal didn't want it facing out: too easy to lose and almost impossible to mount or get at offshore. What Sal and Chris both said, and by the way they know each other well, is you have to try and find a way to support the bottom of the canister. I dont know how yet, but will report back.

[GBR3068]

>> So, that's the answer to my first question: The registration will likely be at https://www.sfyc.org/web/pages/training when ready.

Registration is open.
https://www.regattanetwork.com/clubmgmt/applet_registration_form.php?regatta_id=25657 April 15-16
and
https://www.regattanetwork.com/clubmgmt/applet_registration_form.php?regatta_id=25661 April 22-23

PS I just noticed that April 15-16 is the same weekend as the planned SHTP emergency rudder weekend.

[GBR3068]

I said I'd report back on the liferaft. Here's what I learned. Not everything was obvious.

1. Sal from at Sal's Inflatables and Chris at Svendsen's says by far the most popular rafts are the Vikings. Sal said the RescYou Pro is worth the extra.
2. Sal was a real help through everything. He loaned us different models and empty containers for us to try different options.
3. The RescYou Pro is heavy with or without canister. Nearly 88 lb for container and 75 lb for valise and the container seems heavier when you try and lift it because there's nothing to grab on to. No way to get this model in container or valise out of the cabin in 15 seconds.
4. Sal would not let me mount it on the pushpit. Not nearly strong enough in bad conditions that you will need it. Facing outward you cant get to it, you risk losing it when you need it most and its really hard to mount even at the dock. Facing in you lose enormous amount of room in the cockpit. I couldn't mount it inside the cockpit because it would be in the way of the emergency tiller.
5. Chris wouldn't mount it anywhere but on deck, on the hatch garage. He took the garage off, built supports and a bolting plate scheme to take the cradle off without tearing the garage off again.
6. I'm not sure I trust the single seat belt around the canister. Might have to add some cargo tie downs with more quick-release.
7. I went back and forward so many times on canister or valise. One thing to note is that the Viking dimensions are off for the RescYou Pro valise. The RescYou Pro valise is bigger than the RescYou Ocean, but they just copied and pasted the dimensions from the RescYou Ocean to the RescYou Pro literature. Sal has told them about this after making a custom case that didn't fit, but the error is still there. I figured it out when I tried to fit a valise I borrowed from Sal into a cooler, thinking I could keep that on deck.
8. Be aware that the RescYou Pro canister is bigger than the RescYou Ocean canister for the same four-person size raft.
9. I signed up for Safety at Sea live course and I'll report back on what happens when you try and launch a raft. By all accounts its not easy.
10. I might still get an ISPLR for just in case.

8125

[Gamayun]

For anyone with Facebook, the GGR reports knockdown with loss of liferaft and PLB. That super sucks.
https://www.facebook.com/100063768451833/posts/pfbid02TUb2bymtKKuyPZ4hbu4Uo9nipiMwBi1GhCapNmvXpof yoBPD1pPXAFEjTdxLvbPxl/?mibextid=Nif5oz

[mike cunningham]

I said I'd report back on the liferaft. Here's what I learned. Not everything was obvious.

1. Sal from at Sal's Inflatables and Chris at Svendsen's says by far the most popular rafts are the Vikings. Sal said the RescYou Pro is worth the extra.
2. Sal was a real help through everything. He loaned us different models and empty containers for us to try different options.
3. The RescYou Pro is heavy with or without canister. Nearly 88 lb for container and 75 lb for valise and the container seems heavier when you try and lift it because there's nothing to grab on to. No way to get this model in container or valise out of the cabin in 15 seconds.
4. Sal would not let me mount it on the pushpit. Not nearly strong enough in bad conditions that you will need it. Facing outward you cant get to it, you risk losing it when you need it most and its really hard to mount even at the dock. Facing in you lose enormous amount of room in the cockpit. I couldn't mount it inside the cockpit because it would be in the way of the emergency tiller.
5. Chris wouldn't mount it anywhere but on deck, on the hatch garage. He took the garage off, built supports and a bolting plate scheme to take the cradle off without tearing the garage off again.
6. I'm not sure I trust the single seat belt around the canister. Might have to add some cargo tie downs with more quick-release.
7. I went back and forward so many times on canister or valise. One thing to note is that the Viking dimensions are off for the RescYou Pro valise. The RescYou Pro valise is bigger than the RescYou Ocean, but they just copied and pasted the dimensions from the RescYou Ocean to the RescYou Pro literature. Sal has told them about this after making a custom case that didn't fit, but the error is still there. I figured it out when I tried to fit a valise I borrowed from Sal into a cooler, thinking I could keep that on deck.
8. Be aware that the RescYou Pro canister is bigger than the RescYou Ocean canister for the same four-person size raft.
9. I signed up for Safety at Sea live course and I'll report back on what happens when you try and launch a raft. By all accounts its not easy.
10. I might still get an ISPLR for just in case.

8125


Re item six. Once you are comfortable with the strap down system I would purchase a $5 ceramic knife+sheath to strap down right next to the strap downs. Cheap insurance. While the knives are inexpensive, they cut through strap downs like butter and don't corrode. I have had one strapped to my helm post since the 2015 Longpac and it is still bloody sharp, no pun intended. As a matter of fact, buy two and satisfy the cockpit knife requirement while you are at it.

[Now&Zen]

Cal Maritime just posted a class here is a link to the Pac Cup page with info. https://admin.pacificcup.org/course/sas

[Philpott]

That looks like Randall Reeves teaching the class. "Experienced lifelong sailors" as instructors, indeed!

[Now&Zen]

That looks like Randall Reeves teaching the class. "Experienced lifelong sailors" as instructors, indeed!

it is indeed Randall. He taught the damage control section when I took the class last year. Great teacher.

[GBR3068]

Mike: Good idea. I use these for cockpit and general emergency around the boat for use on line, these seem just right (the others are too small or too big):
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00K7UOTQY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

and these to carry everywhere else:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07JBHH7VY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
but the little pin will eventually corrode on those if soaked in salt water

I just looked for the parrot shaped colored ones which were great and very cheap when I bought them but they dont seem to sell these any more for $4 but still cheap for what they can do:
https://www.amazon.com/Ceramic-Kitchen-Vegetable-Folding-Camping/dp/B0B2KD13B4/ref=sr_1_2?crid=17L54UXRXZTI1&keywords=Ceramic+Paring+Knife+Mini+Bird&qid=1675553526&s=home-garden&sprefix=ceramic+paring+knife+mini+bird%2Cgarden%2C 159&sr=1-2

Now&Zen: thanks for that link. I signed up for the March 25, 2023 PCYC class with Randall. I got a note that said order number 36, so I guess that means 36 people signed up so far. I also signed up for Ashley's class and will do that on April 22-23. Overkill maybe but seems worth it to me to get the benefit of knowledge and advice from experienced people. I already did my online Part 1 and Part 2 courses but I have no problem doing multiple practical and live courses.

[GBR3068]

Carliane mentioned that Guy Waites lost his liferaft and here's two pictures of how it was fitted:

From https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw49oITZHxg


8130

From https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePl7Nz3jAY4

8131

[GBR3068]

I got an email with this report on the liferaft loss. I'm not sure if it is generally available, but posting as I'll lose track of things otherwise…

“I was strapped in and only thought about the mast, which thankfully was okay,” said Waites. “In the morning, the liferaft was gone, vanished. The stainless-steel cradle was bent and the painter had snapped, so the whole thing was gone. If I continue now without a liferaft, I don’t think anyone in my family will be happy with me for a long time!”

This is/was a Viking cradle. Very similar to the one I have, if not the same.

Most of the GGR has a Plastimo liferaft: here https://www.nautisports.com/en/raft-golden-globe-race-plastimo.html with a Kannad PLB that they say is GGR specific but I think would be similar to https://www.aviationsurvival.com/Kannad-XS-4-PLB_p_873.html or https://www.aviationsurvival.com/Kannad-Safelink-Solo_p_872.html

Now GGR requires "406 GPS EPIRB or 406 GPS PLB " in the liferaft so I'd think you might have to crack the Viking plastic straps securing the clamshell that separate on deployment. I can't tell if the clamshell was tied back up and how, but it did catch my eye when I was looking at how secure the canister and cradle was. I think I see the straps in the second picture, but not in the first. The other thing I noticed, and which you can see in the above pictures, is that the cradle is pretty beefy at the ends but the hooks or tabs on the sides are lower and not as wide. Have to think about that.

[Now&Zen]

This is the knife I keep in the cockpit. https://a.co/d/iQqQjBo I keep one of these in my sail repair/splicing box https://a.co/d/7gi76Jo . I have a few other knives around (in my pocket and in the nav station as well as in the galley) but in general my rule is either a fixed blade knife or a locking blade knife. I have seen to many accidents from folding knives with no lock.