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Gamayun
12-29-2022, 11:09 AM
Richard and I (Carliane) are your co-race chairs for the 2023 SSS season. The last couple months, we've been updating the NOR and the SIs. Richard had not been able yet to gain access to the forum so I'm posting his message below to open up this process to the wider group. Would love to hear any concerns or questions. We're happy to have a productive dialogue. Thanks!

----------/////------------

Carliane and I have been working on a DRAFT version of the 2023 General NOR for a while now and are in the home stretch. We'd appreciate your thoughts, if any, by 23:59 December 31 so we can get this posted early in the new year.

We have deliberately changed a good deal from the prior NOR/SSI.

Some items have only moved to new locations in the document: we're trying to put things (more or less) in the order that people will use them, and align with other "standard" NORs people are used to reading elsewhere.

We've tried to make things clearer, and simpler.

We've also tried to nail down areas that seemed ambiguous.

And we pulled in some 3BF SI wording around entry criteria and put an updated version directly into the NOR.

Credit for a lot of this work goes to our early reviewers.

Please take a look and share your thoughts, if any, by end of year, so we can post soon.

Happy Holidays, and wishing you a great 2023! 8016

BobJ
12-29-2022, 12:46 PM
"Please take a look and share your thoughts, if any, by end of year, so we can post soon."

After nearly 20 years of racing with the SSS including two SHTPs, holding board positions, helping other singlehanders with advice, loaning of gear, etc. - I happened to buy a boat with a powered halyard winch.

Why should I still race with the SSS when I'll be scored against 1-2 other boats at most, and am ineligible for perpetuals?

Gamayun
12-29-2022, 01:57 PM
Bob, that is not the intent if you're not "racing" powered assisted. Is there some word smithing that you could offer to fix this? We will go back and take another stab at it, too. This part was probably the hardest to put in the right boxes.

BobJ
12-29-2022, 02:51 PM
All the powered winch language, separate divisions/scoring, etc. was added to SSS's NOR before PHRF resolved the issue by creating rating adjustments for powered winches. I have never been given a clear answer about why the language was not removed once PHRF took action. Here is what I wrote to the board over a year ago:

After SSS's efforts to segregate these boats, PHRF put a system in place to adjust their ratings. Now these boats are getting penalized twice - once in their rating and again by not being able to race in their normal (SSS) divisions. In making the new regulation, NorCal PHRF specifically wanted to avoid this outcome, stating as follows:

"The intent is that boats that are assigned a penalty for a powered winch should be sailing with non-powered boats as they have been penalized for their power, and do not need to be in a separate division, though organizing authorities can divide divisions however they want." (March, 2021 NCPHRF Minutes).

So my suggested word-smithing is that all the powered winch language be removed. Anything short of this puts the SSS in the ratings business, since they are second-guessing our PHRF committee.

BobJ
12-29-2022, 03:09 PM
I'll add: The YRA is now running Winter and regular-season shorthanded race series. YRA handles the powered winch issue the way NorCal PHRF intended, and all the powered winch boats that used to race with the SSS are now racing with YRA. Since your and Richard's intention is to better align SSS's documents with standard practice, you might look at what SSS's competition is doing.

Gamayun
12-29-2022, 03:52 PM
Ok, this is helpful. Again, we weren't trying to take any major action in the rewriting of the NOR (hence, why most of the language was placed somewhere intact), but was trying to better align it with standard NORs and US Sailing guidelines. We had a few things that were policy matters that we asked the board to weigh in, but generally tried to not fiddle too much with the wording. Your point that this is addressed by YRA makes sense. I wasn't part of that discussion back then as I had taken a hiatus from SSS, but I thought this had something to do with encouraging racing by disabled sailors. That is how I see that part. Is it? Is adaptive sailing part of the PHRF process now, too?

BobJ
12-29-2022, 04:09 PM
No, this was not for adaptive sailing or encouraging racing by disabled sailors. The SSS added the powered winch language in reaction to an over-the-top implementation by an able-bodied rigger we both know. PHRF fixed the problem, the rigger took his toy and moved on, but the superfluous language remains and the SSS is losing entries because of it.
.

Dazzler
12-30-2022, 01:32 PM
Please take a look and share your thoughts, if any, by end of year, so we can post soon.

Thank you for your efforts to improve the formatting and add clarity to the NOR.

Please note that under 7.3.12 “ Educational note: Commercial Traffic has right of way on San Francisco Bay…” is technically not correct. It is a common misinterpretation of the COLREGS noted in 12.1 below. I’d suggest limiting the wording to a reminder that there can be many safety reasons for having an alternate means of propulsion readily available.

Gamayun
12-30-2022, 09:46 PM
Thank you for your efforts to improve the formatting and add clarity to the NOR.

Please note that under 7.3.12 “ Educational note: Commercial Traffic has right of way on San Francisco Bay…” is technically not correct. It is a common misinterpretation of the COLREGS noted in 12.1 below. I’d suggest limiting the wording to a reminder that there can be many safety reasons for having an alternate means of propulsion readily available.

Thanks, Tom. "Right of way" is one of those terms that gets used a lot because everyone understands the concept, but it is not COLREGS terminology. We'll go back to the wordsmithing board. This was an example of where we were trying to balance the need for a boat to be able to quickly get out of the way of incoming traffic or avoid docked vessels when there's no wind and adverse current, and not actually requiring a motor on all boats.

Dazzler
12-31-2022, 01:13 PM
Thanks, Tom. "Right of way" is one of those terms that gets used a lot because everyone understands the concept, but it is not COLREGS terminology. We'll go back to the wordsmithing board. This was an example of where we were trying to balance the need for a boat to be able to quickly get out of the way of incoming traffic or avoid docked vessels when there's no wind and adverse current, and not actually requiring a motor on all boats.

Carliane, To be (more?) clear, the entire statement [“Commercial Traffic has right of way on San Francisco Bay…”] is wrong. I was not just pointing out the misuse of “right of way.” There is no rule that uses the term “commercial traffic.”

I absolutely agree that it’s a good idea to encourage having an alternate means of propulsion for a variety of safety reasons including staying out of restricted areas and keeping from being swept into various hazards.

BobJ
12-31-2022, 02:08 PM
My US Sailing Race Management Handbook is >10 years old and I can't find the reference now, but my recollection is that comments like your educational notes are discouraged. I did find this: "A notice of race is a rule as defined in the RRS. This means that boats that do not comply with a requirement of the notice of race can be protested."

You don't want to be vague about anything, so instead of your Educational note in 7.3.12 perhaps write something like "Boats shall carry alternate means of propulsion sufficient to comply with 12.1 herein."

Gamayun
12-31-2022, 07:19 PM
These are all great comments and being taken under consideration. I would have thought there might be more than two people who might weigh in. Does this mean the rest of you have read, understand, and support the draft NOR? Feel free to leave a 'yes, no, still reading it' comment. Would love to hear from everyone. Pull up the old NOR, and do a side-by-side, if that might help. We had suggested a deadline by tonight but happy to get everyone's input. Surely no one is driving in the rain to watch fireworks tonight (well, I might be, but only as far as the Jack London waterfront a mile down the road). Happy New Year!

Gamayun
12-31-2022, 07:23 PM
It would be especially nice to hear from newbies or those who might be considering shorthanded racing for the first time. Please consider this a safe space for your thoughts.

~~ Carliane

Philpott
12-31-2022, 07:31 PM
Happy new year, Carliane! From the photo you posted I assumed you were in Mexico or Hawaii. Thanks for taking on this responsibility. I have nothing to add. Now I'm going to brew some strong coffee, gotta watch Skip's thread, win that book about George and Robert.

Gamayun
01-01-2023, 10:36 AM
It was Cayucos. Not too far for a few days' respite. Happy New Year, Jackie!! I hope you win the book.

GBR3068
01-01-2023, 01:33 PM
>> It would be especially nice to hear from newbies or those who might be considering shorthanded racing for the first time. Please consider this a safe space for your thoughts.

Hi Carliane: Newbie here and as such I am very hesitant indeed to jump into a group discussion that has hundreds of years of cumulative experience behind it, but you basically asked me to comment and thus I feel a sense of owing something to my new playground. I don't really have any opinions that are worth anything, but just wanted to point out some things I found in case it was in any way useful.

1. I had a hard time with reconciling safety wrt rules on communication and weather forecasting offshore so I did a lot of searching on these issues when I first started. It seemed strange to me that its OK to hire a plane to scout the weather but not OK to get the best forecast you can if bad weather is approaching. I found the following site useful and when I was researching I found these references that may be relevant to the discussion on right-of-way, they helped me and in fact I found them before the above issues on safety and right-of-way came up: https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/1098 and also this: https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/searches?search_terms=san%20francisco I am really nervous about the tankers, fishing boats and ferries.
2. I also was unfamiliar with COLREGS and the amalgamated rules so spent some time looking at those as well. I have https://www.amazon.com/Navigation-Rules-Regulations-Handbook-Updated/dp/1937196232 but also use this online site https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/navigation-rules-amalgamated and with my limited experience I think I understand Rule 18(b) in combination with Rules 9, 10, and 13. FWIW my simple dumb naive newbie view of all this, my interpretation if you like, is (act like) "Commercial traffic has right-of-way in San Francisco Bay". Sort of like pedestrians may have right of way on crosswalks but really the bus does.
3. I have seen many well-intentioned attempts to simplify and explain complex laws and it always seems to end badly. For me any examples, pictures, simple language always helps, but I realize the problems that (with what I call) normative versus non-normative language can cause.
4. To me safety overrides everything. So, to me, it would make sense to have some sort of rule where you could do whatever you need to avoid danger without a penalty that might cause you not to do so. So, even if that might mean self-policing, I think such a rule make things safer. I dont think that is a popular view though.
5. I clearly am not qualified to get into this but I realized I do have a WinchRite on board. PO bought it. I don't think it is even charged right now, I don't like it, and I don't use it, but its there. I also have a bi-square bit and a Makita drill. I hadn't even thought about it. Anywho doesn't the handicap system measure the advantage of X and deduct for X, so isn't there already a mechanism for allowing for folks using stuff? I guess thats the point above.
6. I was going mention the following at the meeting where the SSS survey results were discussed but it felt out of place. In my windsurfing days we sort of let the racing overrule the club and social aspects of things and new joiners, which we desperately needed, would come in and see a lot of protests, the seriousness of racing and leave. We ended up with races at STFYC without enough people to race. I totally get that people love to race to strict rules, but if it gets too serious the danger is you wont have anything left. All the rules and notices can get a bit confusing and not long ago I didn't even know what PHRF was let alone what a certificate was. i'm sure I am breaking rules I don't even know about and I'm absolutely sure I don't really understand all the rules. Again, I don't have an answer. Hope I dont upset anyone or get flamed. I just like having this group and hope it doesnt go away any time soon.

Happy New Year

Mike/EOS

Gamayun
01-02-2023, 05:33 PM
Hi Mike, welcome to the SSS! I see you're thinking about doing the SHTP. That's fantastic. All the best on your preparations. Tiger Beetle was a lifesaver for me when I was provisioning in Hanalei and I couldn't get a patch to hold on my dinghy. I still owe him at least a case or two of Mountain Dew.

Thank you so much for your thoughts on the NOR. Those are interesting links you posted, too. Safety on the water and not getting sideways with COLREGS are often one and the same but must be top of every skipper's decision-making process. For the Educational Note on alternate means of propulsion, *we* decided to use the language that Coast Guard has in its permit in which we are to remind all racers that parts of San Francisco Bay and adjacent waterways are considered "narrow channels or fairways." Racers are not exempt in these areas nor from following Rule 9 of the Navigation Rules, which prohibits interference with vessels that can only navigate within these areas. Therefore, SSS strongly encourages racers to have a motor as an alternate means of propulsion.

On the subject of power winches, I don't think a Winch Rite counts, err....unless you're using it while racing and not claiming it on your PHRF, which is really the issue, right? I have no idea how the YRA might count the Winch Rite in its handicapping. For the SSS NOR, the board is going to consider the issue further and make a decision on whether to change the NOR language.

As to the SSS itself, after more than 40 years in existence, I don't think it will be going away anytime soon -- as long as there continues to be a functioning board and active members who care. Money in the coffers helps, too ;)

Another note of interest, I have just set up a camera system on my laptop that is going to provide live streaming and a recording of the TBF of the start/finish line. It also has a box in the viewing screen that shows the NIST clock so we can match up everything. I'm super excited to test it out in the field, but it looks like it's going to work great. Now I just need someone to be my backup and make sure that I actually press the "record" button on race day!

*we* is not just Richard and me as co-chairs this season, but the SSS board who provided important edits and comments on the NOR, particularly related to matters of SSS policy. I'm just the forum messenger.

AntsUiga
01-02-2023, 06:31 PM
Hi Mike, welcome to the SSS!

Another note of interest, I have just set up a camera system on my laptop that is going to provide live streaming and a recording of the TBF of the start/finish line. It also has a box in the viewing screen that shows the NIST clock so we can match up everything. I'm super excited to test it out in the field, but it looks like it's going to work great. Now I just need someone to be my backup and make sure that I actually press the "record" button on race day!

*we* is not just Richard and me as co-chairs this season, but the SSS board who provided important edits and comments on the NOR, particularly related to matters of SSS policy. I'm just the forum messenger.


It is not often that I can comment on why the Three Bridge Fiasco has been very successful for four decades or thereabouts. The efforts of the SSS race committee are the key. The number of 3BF race participants has grown immensely. The volunteers on the SSSRace committee have responded with solutions.

Bless each and every one of them.

Ants

Gamayun
01-02-2023, 08:57 PM
Thanks, Ants. We couldn't do it without racers who show up and participate whether that be on the water, the forum, meetings, socially, phone calls, or whatever the venue. Keep it up! Big hugs to all :)

solosailor
01-02-2023, 09:11 PM
RE: 4.10

I would hope that if there is an error made and it is caught after the race that one would be able to correct this before season end? If not it seems a harsh penalty to lose a season championship for a single character out of place.

BobJ
01-03-2023, 10:55 AM
Mike, regarding your #6 - Participation in sailboat racing continues to decline everywhere. I stay in touch with a couple members of our local PHRF committee. They've told me the committee's #1 concern is participation.

The SSS has been able to maintain the numbers for its big three Bay races but even pre-Covid, it has seen significant declines in the rest of its events. It has always been inclusive of all kinds of boats (as long as they qualify for a PHRF certificate) but apparently those days are over. It's not a good time to exclude boats and with over 1,000 events on the NorCal sailing calendar, there are plenty of other options.
.

GBR3068
01-03-2023, 11:20 AM
Hi everyone and HNY ! I know a society like this cant last without everyone helping. Not much I can do to help right now on this thread but I did go over my notes for this season yesterday and maybe these will help in a practical way:

1. It isn't clear to a newbie that RC is held responsible by USCG for lost boats and how. Maybe add emphasis to reporting RET and getting an ACK from RC. At my first SSS race someone retired and sailed off but did not report. At the Vallejo race I saw first-hand how difficult it could be for RC to get VMs. Wording is "clear voicemail" but how do you know it is clear? You may think you left a clear VM but often wind noise makes it impossible to understand. Also if you leave a VM from a phone number that isnt known, how do you track it down? Text from a known number linked to a boat seemed to be the best and maybe only way to RET and ACK. What isn't clear from reading the NOR or SI is what a problem it is for RC and then USCG if someone retires but doesn't report.

2. A newbie may not know SIs often change right up to the race. It would be good to either say just that or limit at least the type of changes. For the longer races I stay overnight in SF before the start. Sometimes it is hard to get internet access. For example if Jibset PDFs change at the last minute, its not easy to read them, even on your phone. I know its noon the day before right now but moving that line back 12 hours would make a big difference.

3. I was very surprised at how seriously folks take the rules but when racing and I got a DSC alert that could have been a MOB, it seemed to be ignored by the fleet. I also had a hard time figuring out what was going on with USCG. This event also underscored that if you only get an MMSI in an alert, how to you or RC quickly track that to a boat? I think VHF DSC is needed at least for offshore and at least for RC. I think maybe a list of MMSI and boats should be published. Maybe also more emphasis on when there is an alert you should drop everything? There is a RRS rule change along those lines with new flagging, I think.

4. I think your ask was just for NOR but can I also ask here for more newbie "educational" content in the SIs at least for Farallones, Drake's Bay, HMB and LongPac? For Farallones getting an accurate weather forecast is important. For Drake's Bay, more information on South storms and anchoring locations. For HMB, same and more information about berths in the harbor. For LongPac any information, pointers, links that would help a newbie.

5. A link to the RRS might help. Either https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/WSRRS20212024FinalwithChgsandCorrecns201113-%5B26798%5D.pdf and/or the page https://www.ussailing.org/competition/rules-officiating/the-racing-rules-of-sailing-2021-2024/ Tough to include links when they may get stale, but in this case I think it really helps a newbie. You did put the COLREGS link in, but not to the amalgamated rules at https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/navigation-rules-amalgamated. I'm still not sure what the relationship between versions is exactly or what "When a boat sailing under these rules meets a vessel that is not, she shall comply with the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (IRPCAS) or government right-of-way rules." At least its not spelled out to the level of precision used elsewhere.

Gamayun
01-03-2023, 12:29 PM
RE: 4.10

I would hope that if there is an error made and it is caught after the race that one would be able to correct this before season end? If not it seems a harsh penalty to lose a season championship for a single character out of place.

Hi Solo, Section 4.10 is written so that onus is on the racer to input their registration correctly and the same way each time. If a boat is registered under two different people (whether it's the same person or not) for two different races, then each name will be scored separately. This allows multiple people to use the same boat during the season -- each scored separately.

Gamayun
01-03-2023, 12:36 PM
Mike, regarding your #6 - Participation in sailboat racing continues to decline everywhere. I stay in touch with a couple members of our local PHRF committee. They've told me the committee's #1 concern is participation.

The SSS has been able to maintain the numbers for its big three Bay races but even pre-Covid, it has seen significant declines in the rest of its events. It has always been inclusive of all kinds of boats (as long as they qualify for a PHRF certificate) but apparently those days are over. It's not a good time to exclude boats but with over 1,000 events on the NorCal sailing calendar, there are plenty of other options. I wish you all well. It's been a fun 20 years.

Thanks for this input, Bob. This year will be 10 years racing with SSS and the intimidation of racers on the bay is the number one reason I hear from new sailors why they don't do it. It's just not fun. It also saddens me to hear your comment that "apparently those [inclusive] days are over." You have been a great mentor and friend to me. I will miss you out there.

Gamayun
01-03-2023, 01:36 PM
Mike, I love these questions! It gives me a chance to give *our* thoughts about the making of the revised NOR. Keep 'em coming but maybe split up your questions into smaller doses. See below responses in red.


Hi everyone and HNY ! I know a society like this cant last without everyone helping. Not much I can do to help right now on this thread but I did go over my notes for this season yesterday and maybe these will help in a practical way:

1. It isn't clear to a newbie that RC is held responsible by USCG for lost boats and how. Maybe add emphasis to reporting RET and getting an ACK from RC. At my first SSS race someone retired and sailed off but did not report. At the Vallejo race I saw first-hand how difficult it could be for RC to get VMs. Wording is "clear voicemail" but how do you know it is clear? You may think you left a clear VM but often wind noise makes it impossible to understand. Also if you leave a VM from a phone number that isnt known, how do you track it down? Text from a known number linked to a boat seemed to be the best and maybe only way to RET and ACK. What isn't clear from reading the NOR or SI is what a problem it is for RC and then USCG if someone retires but doesn't report.

Accounting for all racers is a big issue with every RC on the bay. The SSS RC is responsible for letting USCG know when everyone has finished racing or has retired. We don't get to go home until we can account for everyone, even if that means calling your emergency contacts late at night. The NOR now says you have three ways of getting in touch with RC (text, VHF, or voice mail). What the revised NOR also says in Section 13.2. is that "Retiring is not complete until acknowledged by the Race Committee." This means that if we don't acknowledge your VM or text or you don't hear us respond on VHF because you're behind Coast Guard Island and out of line of sight, then you have not properly retired.

2. A newbie may not know SIs often change right up to the race. It would be good to either say just that or limit at least the type of changes. For the longer races I stay overnight in SF before the start. Sometimes it is hard to get internet access. For example if Jibset PDFs change at the last minute, its not easy to read them, even on your phone. I know its noon the day before right now but moving that line back 12 hours would make a big difference.

The RC's intent is to have SIs correct and uploaded to Jibeset earlier than, but not later than, the Wednesday before each race, but everyone needs to check the SIs to see that they have not been revised, which will be noted in Jibeset, too. It would be rare to keep making changes either the day before or at the start, but schtuff happens and RC reserves that right, especially as it relates to a safety issue or something out of our control like an established mark that breaks from its mooring. I can promise you that I (as RC co-chair) will do my best to announce any written changes over VHF the morning of the race, but it's still your responsibility to know. I might be opening a Pandora Box, but feel free to text the RC and ask them directly. Their contact # will be listed on the SIs. We are being paid beaucoup bucks as RCs, so please be kind with the gripes, if we should mess up anything.

3. I was very surprised at how seriously folks take the rules [OH, you have NO idea....] but when racing and I got a DSC alert that could have been a MOB, it seemed to be ignored by the fleet. I also had a hard time figuring out what was going on with USCG. This event also underscored that if you only get an MMSI in an alert, how to you or RC quickly track that to a boat? I think VHF DSC is needed at least for offshore and at least for RC. I think maybe a list of MMSI and boats should be published. Maybe also more emphasis on when there is an alert you should drop everything? There is a RRS rule change along those lines with new flagging, I think.

This response would take more time and thought than I have right now but suffice it to say that everybody on the water (whether racing or not) has a duty to render service. The very first thing that the RRS says in Section 1.1 is "A boat, competitor or support person shall give all possible help to any person or vessel in danger." But also know that if 30 boats converge on an MOB, then that might not be the best thing either. As was learned with the Low Speed Chase accident, comms on the VHF can also complicate rescue efforts. Every skipper needs to assess what is happening on the water, how close they are to render assistance, and how best to do that. Also, DSC should be standard on every vessel. Knowing how to use it to send or receive a DSC alert is also the responsibility of each skipper. Any thoughts on this from others? Reading the after-accident reports were eye opening and have been helpful tools for me as I continue to progress my experience while cruising and racing.

4. I think your ask was just for NOR but can I also ask here for more newbie "educational" content in the SIs at least for Farallones, Drake's Bay, HMB and LongPac? For Farallones getting an accurate weather forecast is important. For Drake's Bay, more information on South storms and anchoring locations. For HMB, same and more information about berths in the harbor. For LongPac any information, pointers, links that would help a newbie.

Let us consider what we can do. SSS provides seminars for those prepping for SHTP and each race has a skippers meeting that often contains the information that you are seeking; however, it remains the responsibility of each skipper to know what the weather is doing and to know the limitations of yourself, your crew, your vessel, and whether your gear is appropriate for the conditions. When I did some races with BAMA, they had required reading for their offshore races. Check it out! The first time I soloed to Drakes Bay and anchored for the fourth time on my boat in the dark. I then spent the next two hours listening to boats calling for CG assistance as they dragged anchors into each other and onto the shore. It was scary. There are many people on this forum and in the sailing community who can also guide you. Please reach out and brainstorm with people you meet. Michael Jefferson (Mouton Noir) and Dave Morris (Moonshadow and Tri-n-fly) were the primary ones I leaned on (hard) to help me learn as quickly as I could as a new sailor with a 38-footer.

5. A link to the RRS might help. Either https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/WSRRS20212024FinalwithChgsandCorrecns201113-%5B26798%5D.pdf and/or the page https://www.ussailing.org/competition/rules-officiating/the-racing-rules-of-sailing-2021-2024/ Tough to include links when they may get stale, but in this case I think it really helps a newbie. You did put the COLREGS link in, but not to the amalgamated rules at https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/navigation-rules-amalgamated. I'm still not sure what the relationship between versions is exactly or what "When a boat sailing under these rules meets a vessel that is not, she shall comply with the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (IRPCAS) or government right-of-way rules." At least its not spelled out to the level of precision used elsewhere.

Coast Guard rules absolutely RULE in US waters. Racing Rules of Sailing (here's the 2021-2024 PDF: https://d7qh6ksdplczd.cloudfront.net/sailing/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/12121644/2021-2025-RRS-with-Chgs-and-Corrns-v1to-4_-Jan-1-2023.pdf) govern you only when you're racing under our NOR. An example from my early racing on a friend's Hunter 41 was coming up to a mark and another, faster boat was coming up behind us. Someone on that boat yelled, "We're racing. Get out of the way." We yelled back, "so are we" and that was the end of that. All I ask is, "don't be that guy." Everyone is just trying to enjoy their time on the water, or they have a job to do on the water. And Coast Guard rules us all.

solosailor
01-04-2023, 11:54 AM
Hi Solo, Section 4.10 is written so that onus is on the racer to input their registration correctly and the same way each time.Yes but mistakes do happen. I think that if someone puts Steve vs Stephen accidentally for one race there should be a way to rectify this once caught, no? What if it's even a more simple mistake like Steve vs Stece via a simply typo. Again, seems very harsh to say that can't be corrected once caught.

Gamayun
01-04-2023, 12:27 PM
Yes but mistakes do happen. I think that if someone puts Steve vs Stephen accidentally for one race there should be a way to rectify this once caught, no? What if it's even a more simple mistake like Steve vs Stece via a simply typo. Again, seems very harsh to say that can't be corrected once caught.

Of course, it absolutely can be corrected but our point is that needs to be done "as soon as possible" (quotes are mine for emphasis) so a boat is not scored separately. The SSS is now going to assume different names with the same boat means different skippers. I believe the easiest way to fix a misspelled entry is to contact Ray at Jibeset but it might be possible someone on the SSS board also has access to the Jibeset registrations and could change it. Let me find out exactly and I will report back here and maybe amend the NOR so that section is clearer. Of course, everyone could just use the "auto input" feature and this would likely never be an issue unless someone is using a new computer, I suppose.

Gamayun
01-04-2023, 12:40 PM
Or even more confusing....what if Johnny Bravo Goode and his son Johnny Bravo Goode II are sailing the same boat in the same season? I think Jibeset names are only so many characters and then they get cut off at the end. This means everyone needs to check their own entries. We are not going to do this for you.

dolfinbill
01-04-2023, 05:46 PM
Hi Carliane, It's just so nice to see you back in the SSS.

DolfinBill
Crealock 37

fauxboat
01-04-2023, 07:27 PM
Solosailor You're right the scoring will be wrong if the names do not match. Happily, jibeset auto-fills in the names when we register --- so the only way to have the wrong name is to manually change something to be inconsistent. Please don't do that.

GBR3068 You make a number of helpful points. I've forgotten the wording of the Coast Guard permits, but no one wants to call them and say "we started 85 boats, and we know 83 boats finished or retired, so cut us some slack --- we're within 5%." We'd love for every document to be perfect the first time out, but the need for changes does crop up, and so a ~24 hour cutoff on changes is about as far ahead as we feel comfortable committing to written changes. For context, the 2022 SSS NOR used the same cutoff of noon Friday before the race; the 2022 YRA Great Vallejo race cutoff was 1800 on the Friday before the race. Educational material has a home in many places --- the Safety At Sea classes (required for OYRA races and SSS coastal races as part of the "safety equipment requirements") have a nice discussion about how to help in an emergency, for example. And this forum, with your helpful links to the RRS, is another great resource. For anyone looking to understand the rules better, I usually suggest looking at the US Sailing Appeals and World Sailing Cases --- they both are free PDFs and are organized by rule, so it's easy to look up rule 41 (say) in the front, read the short summaries of a few examples, and then flip to the details if interested.

Richard

Gamayun
01-04-2023, 07:49 PM
Hi Carliane, It's just so nice to see you back in the SSS.

DolfinBill
Crealock 37

Hey Bill, thanks. It's so nice to hear from you! I read something about you recently and it brought back many lovely memories of our race together and how kind you were to me. I'm still in the Oakland area if you and Patty are ever up this ways.

Gamayun
01-04-2023, 09:54 PM
Thanks to Pressure Drop who just posted this to their Facebook page. It is a DSC trial at OYC in 2014 with USCG reps that occured before BAMA's doublehanded Farallons race. It's not too long and might have useful tips. https://vimeo.com/89669435

GBR3068
01-05-2023, 02:36 PM
Hi Carliane!

>> Keep 'em coming but maybe split up your questions into smaller doses. See below responses in red.

Wilco. Question #3 was on safety and DSC and that may warrant a thread of its own so I dont want to clutter this thread up with all the material that I waded through to learn about DSC. The link you posted from the USCG lecture on DSC to DH Farallones is good because it lets you hear the warbling tone of a DSC distress call. Some of the information may be out-of-date especially wrt relay. I'm no expert here, not even close, but for example the UK changed their relay procedures, I'm still not sure about the US. So I'm still figuring things out, but it sure would be great to have a USCG lecture again. I learned the most about DSC the fastest from these short videos and they may be useful to others too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBIkdQ2QAvM VHF DSC Distress Mayday
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chvK9HDGtCY VHF DSC Training Part 2

I can include the other practical DSC references that I found useful in another thread but I think the "authority" on DSC operation is here: https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/rec/m/R-REC-M.541-10-201510-I!!PDF-E.pdf with an abbreviated USCG version here https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/dsc-distress

Anyway the point of your thread was NOR and SI and I do think it might be a good idea for everyone to have DSC radios and consider including that in the race documents.

Dazzler
01-05-2023, 07:45 PM
I do think it might be a good idea for everyone to have DSC radios and consider including that in the race documents.

The requirement for DSC/GPS equipped VHF radios has already been addressed in the YRA/OYRA equipment requirements for offshore racing. For Bay racing, there’s really no need to add a requirement for yet ANOTHER piece of equipment.

Aside from the emergency/distress call function, I wonder if anyone reading this has ever placed a DSC radio call? I suspect not.

GBR3068
01-05-2023, 09:03 PM
Yes, 3.81 and 3.82 of http://yra.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/SER-with-OYRA-changes-2021.pdf specifies DSC and 7.4 of Singlehanded Sailing Society 2023 General NoR DRAFT 0.9.8 of 2022-12-29.pdf thus requires DSC but 7.3.11 only requires a VHF radio (I do not know why YRA SER 3.9 wrt AIS was removed?). I think most new VHF radios have DSC so not sure why it would be another piece of equipment. Compared to the costs of other life-saving equipment and a boat, a $100 DSC radio seems like a good deal. For some reasons to have DSC, see for example https://wow.uscgaux.info/content.php?unit=170&category=dsc-vhf-radio-rescue-21 and West Marine https://www.westmarine.com/west-advisor/DIY-Safety-Equipment.html "DSC is like 911 for your boat—better in fact, because rescuers have the technology to determine exactly who and where you are, and sometimes the exact nature of your emergency."

Maybe whoever the powers that be were that architected DSC could perhaps have done a better job, but DSC is here now and it definitely alerted me in one race that there might be a problem. To me 99% of the value of DSC is in the distress call, the "red button". I have heard of many situations where the CG has advised someone on a Ch. 16 call to "go ahead and press your DSC", it gives them location. I have tried a DSC call and my B&G Zeus3 is supposed to be able to just call a target via a pop-up using DSC but for some reason this does not work with the V20, though it may with the V60. One thing I could see being useful down the road is forming a group call number for a racing fleet and RRC though.

I suppose like other proposed changes it happens slowly as people see the benefit and it will become more of a requirement, and it would be good to hear what the USCG thinks. Meanwhile I think from what I read that the USCG feels the biggest problem is making sure that people that choose to or are required to have DSC know how to use it including getting and using an MMSI. I guess that was my original comment: I was surprised that a whole fleet that I think must have had DSC radios according to the rules missed a DSC distress call.

Anyway, my main focus was to help Carliane was trying to explain what I learned as a newbie and would have been useful to see in the race documents.

Thanks!

Gamayun
01-06-2023, 01:35 PM
Thanks for the comments on the DSC. We have no plans of adding any equipment requirements, but this gives me some really useful ideas about possible future seminars or info that could go in presentations for the skippers' meetings.

My own thoughts on the topic: It was my understanding there had been a new regulation requiring all new VHF radios to be DSC-capable, but I bought a handheld about 6 months ago from Svendsen's that was not. It has been relegated to my small boat that stays in the estuary. All my radios on the big boat have DSC, especially if I have inexperienced sailing friends onboard. Our safety talk includes telling them to press/hold the red button, speak with CG, and then sail the boat safely until someone can help. I keep a VHF on my person and plan to do the same if I am in the water.

fauxboat
01-10-2023, 10:37 PM
Attention, SSS Racers!

The board has reviewed the manual winch vs powered winch policy introduced a few years ago. With benefit of that experience, and based on consideration of the PHRF rating penalties for "power winch" and "power assist" boats, the board has decided to simplify the classes and remove the power distinction.

The NOR has been revised to reflect this --- see attached. Changes are highlighted in yellow.

Please double check that your PHRF certificate accurately states any powered winches or power-assist features of your boat, to avoid being protested for violating the "class rules" of PHRF.

Thank you for racing with the SSS, and we look forward to seeing you on the water in 2023.

Richard and Carliane, SSS Race Co-Chairs

solosailor
01-11-2023, 01:04 PM
I thought the members voted on this prior? Why was there no new vote? NOR was issued on the 2nd and now this change without any member input or time to respond.

FUGU-W30
01-11-2023, 03:19 PM
The board has received survey responses from members on the question of power winches, and has been receiving input from members via emails and personal interactions on this topic. It is in response to these inputs, and the board's desire to continue the assessment of the effects of power winches and the PHRF rating adjustments on shorthanded racing, that the SSS board voted this week to accept the PHRF rating adjustments and monitor the results for the 2023 season. We will of course review this decision based on the results when considering the NOR's for the 2024 season.
Chris Case, Commodore SSS

solosailor
01-15-2023, 05:32 PM
Well it seems the board has made the decision but I'll leave some comments regarding this announcement. I know things never come out less than terce on a forum vs. personal interactions and I know we have very dedicated board members so I'm not trying to bash anyone and my apologies if it comes out that way.

I've been racing with the SSS since the mid-90s and have been racing full seasons basically ever since, rarely missing a race though the ownership of 3x different boats. I care very deeply about the SSS and her participants. I relish the competition and continue to learn from her vast diverse membership of sailors and boats.


The board has received survey responses from members on the question of power winchesAs I didn't see any survey I'm thinking it wasn't a complete survey of active members like the last round.


has been receiving input from members via emails and personal interactions on this topic. Well as many of us thought this was put to rest with a member survey/vote, we didn't know we should still be active lobbying.


the board's desire to continue the assessment of the effects of power winches and the PHRF rating adjustments on shorthanded racingThe thing is the PHRF rating penalty is for CREWED boats vs. CREWED boats. Never have they considered the effects of using a powered winch on single or doublehanded race boats where the effect of such use is greatly amplified.

For me and many who have spoken to me about the subject it has little or nothing to do with the amount of rating penalty applied. It has to do with manually sailing your boat to the best of your abilities as racing sailboats is a sport. If you are using power winch(s) you are not fatiguing through the race as you would without one/them. Pushing buttons while others work the winches manually is not fair sailing and I believe very bad for the sport of sailing in the long term.

Another slippery slope this brings is the fiscal arms race. Some people will have a single cabin house winch that came with their boat and some will spare no expense and spend tens of thousands of dollars.

I still advocate for people being able to race with powered winches if they so choose but they should still be in their own division of like boats.

GBR3068
01-24-2023, 09:15 PM
Did I miss this? I think I missed this … I thought that maybe there would be a standard tracking information paragraph in the NOR and/or SIs? including something like this:

… you can register your GPS tracking device at: www.jibeset.net/gpsspot0200.php