To Sock or Not To Sock?

[pogen]

Hi All,

I have an Olson 34 -- sym kite boat, medium displacement. I am still pretty new to single/shorthanded spin handling. Generally, we douse in a conventional matter, go deep, pole forward, raise the jib (esp. if windy), then either spike the guy or let it run, gather the foot under the boom, halyard down in a controlled manner. I have done it by myself a few times, too.

However, several pretty knowledgeable sailors are suggesting strongly that I get a spin sock for shorthanding, especially for our upcoming PacCup DH run this summer. The benefits would be fast and easy douse when squalls hit, and even douse or semi-douse when jibing. The main drawback as I see it is complexity and the chance for things to get tangled aloft. Also my bias would be to keep things as simple as possible. But on the other hand I am not too happy of the idea of getting caught with the spin up when the wind jumps from 18 kts to 32 kts. The expense ($600) is also a negative.

I'm told that Stan Honey on his Cal 40 uses a sock crewed even, and all sorts of TransPac crewed boats use them. When I look at our SSS fleet on the water, it seems like it's a pretty mixed bag.

I'm trying to borrow one to try, but in the mean time what do you guys think?

Thanks

David

PS After this we can talk about what folks think about twin pole setups. ;)

[Travieso]

Hi David,

I think you are at the edge of the sock. I would say that for anything over 35' you should have a sock as an option as there is a lot of material to gather. When I had my Ericson 30+ I initially tried the sock and quickly put it away. Had a ridiculous tangle on my retrieving line just entering back into Bonita on a breeze and some freaking tankers coming down and it was a disaster. I just wanted to get the damned thing down and couldn't. It also turned out that it was faster to just douse (as you described). You still have to go to the foredeck to deal with the sock, etc. When I did the SHTP I took the sock with me, just in case but never used it. For jibing frequently it might be useful and if you rig the lines to the sock to ensure they don't foul it might be ok. As I say, you are at the edge of where I think the benefit to pain threshold might make it worth it. But you will need to play with it some to ensure you have a good setup.

dan

[BobJ]

I checked the leech lengths on your PHRF certificate (44') and I don't have a sock that's long enough for you to try - my older ATN sock is 41'.

In the 2006 SHTP I used it with longer, cockpit run up/down lines and it was pretty sweet, especially for those solo douses at 0200 in a squall - I didn't have to leave the cockpit.

In the 2008 SHTP I used it with the more conventional foredeck up/down lines and it was a royal PITA. I haven't used it since (1,000+ sq. foot assymetric runner).

[Phil MacFarlane]

I've gone with and without socks on Sail a Vie. 75% of my trans pacs have been with. Never put one on the once and a half. Figure if it's that light I don't need one. Been right so far.
Twin poles are awesome. Make jibing the spinnaker while the auto pilot is driving much easier and safe and a lot of times quicker;)
Also great if your flying twins. Draw back is it means two foreguys and to topping lifts.

[Phil MacFarlane]

Oh and David, I have an ATN sock you can try. May be a bit short but that's ok it will give the idea. In my opinion you want them a little short if your using it to jibe. I have one that's long on my boat should work good on yours.

[pogen]

Thanks Phil, and you other guys for the input. I will have a chance to have a look at O-34 Razzberries sock tomorrow also.

I have two full length poles, I thought to run twin poles I could use a spare halyard as a topper and it won't be hard to change the rigging of the foreguy, it is already split so you can control it from either side of the cabin-top -- I just need to rig each side to be independent and increase the purchase of each line as my overall purchase on the foreguy is now 2:1. I think. I also need to add a separate mast track car for the pole but, or make one that has 2 attachment points.


I'm also thinking about running my #2 poled out, I have not been able to get the geometry right with the #1 with the sheet led to the standard fairlead which is pretty far inboard. I read somewhere that if you are going to put a jib on a pole to wing-on-wing you should have a separate guy-line to control the pole separate from the sheet, but I have never seen this done.

[BobJ]

When I pole out a genoa, I run another sheet aft and under the lifelines. Also, I lark's head (slip knot) a sturdy loop through the clew ring and clip the pole into that (instead of directly onto the sheet), otherwise the pole slides aft and down the sheet.

If it's light you'll need a topper on the whisker pole (but you really should have a kite up of course). I'm not a fan of any kind of guy, since in a good gust you can snap the pole. If you run one, run it from the tip of the pole, not the middle. I guess you'll be using a spinnaker pole with bridles as your whisker pole, so that may not be a problem.

I'm too lazy to look, but I think there may be an article on Kame's website (PineappleSails.com) about gybing with two poles. Kame is speaking this Wednesday night on these very topics, BTW.

[pogen]

Thanks, I plan to be there.

This guy makes it look pretty easy without all these extra lines and bother. Not sure what all the big deal is about this singlehanding anyway! ;)

http://pressure-drop.us/imagehost/images/14980666059898964318.jpg

[BobJ]

Well, he forgot to switch the runners over for a starter. If the wind picks up we'll see how he likes hauling the busted rig back aboard, single-handed.

Hey Mr. Can - look, no lifelines! (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

[pogen]

Good call Bob, I guess I missed that being blinded by the whiteness of the couches.

And anyway only pussy-ass inferior sailors need or want lifelines.

[tiger beetle]

This guy makes it look pretty easy without all these extra lines and bother. Not sure what all the big deal is about this singlehanding anyway! ;)

I want to see him drag the no. 4 on deck and do sail change - that was the limiting factor for me on boat size: what's the biggest sail I can drag on deck, and decided the SC 50 spinnaker was the limit. Conveniently, Beetle has sails just slightly smaller than the SC 50.

I'm a fan of ATN socks, I had them on the Newport 33 and they worked great for me. I tried various configurations, including lengthening the sock line to lead it through blocks on the foredeck all the way back to the cockpit - decided that was more trouble than it was worth as I always had to go to the foredeck anyway to lower and retrieve the sail once it was socked.

I also ran double-poles for the gybe for a while, and decided that was more trouble than it was worth. Simpler to do a flying jibe in less than 15 knots of breeze, and easier to pull the sock part-way down and then jibe the single pole and then pull the sock back up. So I simply kept the second pole as a backup for use after breaking the first one (which I did with regularity).

- rob/beetle

[tiger beetle]

Well, he forgot to switch the runners over for a starter. If the wind picks up we'll see how he likes hauling the busted rig back aboard, single-handed.(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

that's not a runner block, that's the jib clew sheeting arrangement for the self-tacking jib.

-rob/beetle

[pogen]

Bruce and I went out on Razzberries to check out his sock, an older ATN one. We were sailing bare headed in about 12 - 16 kts, and also with the main not up, and it kept wanting to jam about half way up, and the top tended to spin and wrap quite a bit. I think having the main up and the sheet slacked off more would have helped. I was kind of worried about it jamming up there, so we bailed. Bruce was kind enough to loan it to me, as he said he hadn't used it in many years, as it adds complexity and workload when jibing. He also douses and goes to jibs or twins above 15kts. I haven't decided about giving it another try for the 3BF.

[Phil MacFarlane]

Yep. If it jams half way up pull down on the center of the foot of the sail. (with your third hand) The body of the sail tends to go up with the sock causing a jam up.
Sock are better for dowsing than setting. Even then, there have been times, very windy times when I could barley get the sock down.
Enjoy.

[dhusselman]

Every time I use a sock I feel it makes setting and dousing the chute more difficult. On the other hand every time I don't use a sock and I have a hard time dousing the chute, I feel that the sock would make life easier...

I prefer not using a sock but at the same time I get nervous when it blows and I don't use the sock...

It's a love/hate relationship, like so many other things..

Dirk
Xpression - C&C 110

[JimQuanci]

If you haven't found one yet, and want to test before you invest, I have an unused sock for my Cal 40 you can take for a test drive (46 foot hoist which is likely pretty close to what you have).

I am also debating whether to sock or not. Its clear for short races like the SH and DH Farallones - and you have significant competition - socking is too slow (I typically have one or two other Cal 40's I am racing against). You give up lots and lots of boat lengths dealing with the sock. For SH or DH Transpac socking is probably just fine - what's a minute or two or three per jibe - and socking with two people is a whole lot easier/quicker then with one person - with a little practice can likely do in under a minute.

Had a brisk debate with Stan the other day on socking versus double pole jibes. :-)

One thing is clear, both socking and double pole jibes work great if you are well practiced and know the proper technique for your boat - especially when the wind and waves are up. If you are not well practiced and aren't sure what the proper technique is both socking and double pole jibes can make for a mess (gordian knot around the headstay, broken pole, etc).

Do work through how you do a sock jibe without taking the spinnaker net down (you sure want the net up when using a sock to avoid the gordian knot on the headstay - especially as you go to unsock the spinnaker after the jibe). Tip is having a spinnaker net that only has net starting maybe 40% of the way up the rig - so you can jibe the pole without ever taking the net down.

[Eyrie]

Another issue that must be addressed re. jibing the pole with a net is insuring that the topping lift can also clear the net. You'll need to be able to jibe the pole behind the "leech" or else the topping lift will be fouled. Think of the net as if it were a #4 strapped to the center line. If the "leech" is secured to the base of the mast, then you'll need to move the leech forward before jibing. If you can build the net such that you always secure the "leech" forward of the mast with enough room to jibe the pole end for end then you're golden. Of course, a dip pole jibe is completely different and you'll most likely need to take the "leech" all the way to the bow to clear the jibe (essentially taking the net down, temporarily), unless it's possible to build the net such that the lower horizontal "net" is high enough to clear the topper at the mast, or at least high enough the it doesn't inhibit the topper at the mast when you square the pole back after the jibe.

Synthia/Eyrie

[BobJ]

What's this "pole" and "topping lift" you speak of? I've gybed the spinnaker many times and can't recall dealing with such things . . .

[cafemontaigne]

Another issue that must be addressed re. jibing the pole with a net is insuring that the topping lift can also clear the net. You'll need to be able to jibe the pole behind the "leech" or else the topping lift will be fouled. Think of the net as if it were a #4 strapped to the center line.

My topping lift block is about 3/4 of the way up the rig, but my lowest horizontal strap on the net is only half way up. I thought this would cause interference, but during the last SHTP I stumbled onto a happy way to jibe (out of sheer laziness, at 3 in the morning, in a squall). The "leech" was made out of the core of some cheap nylon line, and it's stretchy enough that it'll give way if I leave it in place for the jibe and it won't interfere with the pole. I can jibe first and let the topping lift ride against the net a bit, then reach up to where I know I won't get a wrap, ease the pole forward and throw the leech of the net over the pole and move it to the other side. This way I have the net in place during the jibe, which is when I really want it. Alternatively, I can "jibe" the net first, then the chute, and I'll have less trouble getting the pole over on the new guy. So you might want to experiment with using a line with enough stretch that you can jibe with it in place.

[Culebra]

...during the last SHTP I stumbled onto a happy way to jibe (out of sheer laziness, at 3 in the morning, in a squall).

And this, boys and girls, is just one of the reasons why he won the race, jibing in the squalls at 3 a.m.! I'm still in awe Adrian.

Paul

[JimQuanci]

Have done a few PacCups where we just left the net stretched up against the topping lift after the jibe. As you say, nets tend to be plenty stretchy to make way for the topping lift. Didn't bother taking the net down and moving it at all. Just left the net stretched agianst the topping lift. One less thing to deal with... one less thing to do on the foredeck that creates opportunity for an "oops". :-)

[cafemontaigne]

Have done a few PacCups where we just left the net stretched up against the topping lift after the jibe. As you say, nets tend to be plenty stretchy to make way for the topping lift. Didn't bother taking the net down and moving it at all. Just left the net stretched agianst the topping lift. One less thing to deal with... one less thing to do on the foredeck that creates opportunity for an "oops". :-)

Yeah, I think cleaning it up after the jibe was just my inner neat-freak acting out. That and the potential chafe when I square back the pole. But on my boat it's a lot easier to get up there and throw something over the pole than on a Cal 40.

Paul, to be honest, that was my first jibe of the race, and I ended up behind the squall in no wind until sunrise. After that I learned to avoid the squalls altogether.