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brianb
05-16-2012, 12:48 PM
Hi,

I had heard a rumor that a box might be added to allow tracking of the entrants. Does someone have a status update ? Also, the trackers owned by the club, do they still work and would they work at least for part of the distance ?

Regards,

Brian Boschma

robtryon
05-18-2012, 09:26 AM
Hi all, I have been contacting all skippers and have not got ahold of everyone, so here is the scoop. All boats on the start line will have Yellowbrick trackers aboard. The trackers we own will not work for a Hawaii race, and the last thing we need, with a big fleet and everyone watching so closely, is for a racer to go silent. Unfortunately, when I worked up the budget for the race (and lowered the entry fee), it didn't include trackers. Most of you probably don't know that the Singlehanded TransPac is financially separate from the SSS. Entry and sponsor fees have always supported the entire race. The trackers we're getting are $300 per boat and I'm asking the skippers to pick that up. I've had three very generous skippers who are so pro-tracker that they've offered to, between them, cover any shortfall from skippers who couldn't (or wouldn't) pay for the trackers, but I don't think it's fair to put the onus on these generous folks.

Please go to www.yellowbrick-tracking.com (http://www.yellowbrick-tracking.com) to check out exactly what these things will be doing for us. It's a pretty awesome service. They'll be doing all of the web work for the online tracking page, so we won't have to have volunteers staying up all hours collating all the check-in data. Please note that check-in via SSB or sat phone will still be required.

We all know change is in the wind in regards to the Coast Guard's approval of ocean events. Being proactive to get these trackers will help them feel more comfortable in approving our permit, plus it has the added bonus of allowing friends and family to track the fleet more easily. Our group has always had a really good relationship with the Coast Guard because we've had good communication with them, and having trackers in our comm plan will go a long way to making them feel comfortable.

If you have any questions or concerns that you'd like to discuss with me privately, give me a call at 503-490-3305.

brianb
05-18-2012, 09:59 AM
Hello All,

I have a few concerns about tracker data availability on deck. In my mind it is a huge advantage to have near real time data of your competitions moves. For those with satellite service they potentially have this visibility, at great expense. This advantage will not be available to all, or at least not this boat. A 24 hour update has been the norm, or possibly a 12 hour update. Unless the rules already state this, I would like to propose that access to vessel position data by competitors be limited to the period at check in time. If this is not acceptable than I would like to propose that tracker data will not be publicly available via the internet. Simply that the skipper of the each vessel can allow access to a list of email addresses, the USCG, and the RC. No other public users would have access to the data. The RC should publish a public update once or at most twice per day.

With regards to cost and safety: Cost - the trackers are cool and add to the public impression of the race, however the cost is prohibitive. For me it means bailing on the use of a Sat Phone as it is about the same cost.

Safety: This is getting out of hand. The layers of redundancy are adding more and more expense and are not necessary. The USCG has stated in every recent meeting , pre and post LSC disaster, that the EPIRB is the correct device. The combination of EPRIB and PLB enhances the picture further. Now we are adding yet another layer of safety at the price of more than a PLB. What action will the USCG take when a tracker fails ? None. They will wait for EPIRB confirmation of a real problem.

Please consider this and amend the rules accordingly.

Regards,

Brian Boschma
s/v redsky



Hi all, I have been contacting all skippers and have not got ahold of everyone, so here is the scoop. All boats on the start line will have Yellowbrick trackers aboard. The trackers we own will not work for a Hawaii race, and the last thing we need, with a big fleet and everyone watching so closely, is for a racer to go silent. Unfortunately, when I worked up the budget for the race (and lowered the entry fee), it didn't include trackers. Most of you probably don't know that the Singlehanded TransPac is financially separate from the SSS. Entry and sponsor fees have always supported the entire race. The trackers we're getting are $300 per boat and I'm asking the skippers to pick that up. I've had three very generous skippers who are so pro-tracker that they've offered to, between them, cover any shortfall from skippers who couldn't (or wouldn't) pay for the trackers, but I don't think it's fair to put the onus on these generous folks.

Please go to www.yellowbrick-tracking.com (http://www.yellowbrick-tracking.com) to check out exactly what these things will be doing for us. It's a pretty awesome service. They'll be doing all of the web work for the online tracking page, so we won't have to have volunteers staying up all hours collating all the check-in data. Please note that check-in via SSB or sat phone will still be required.

We all know change is in the wind in regards to the Coast Guard's approval of ocean events. Being proactive to get these trackers will help them feel more comfortable in approving our permit, plus it has the added bonus of allowing friends and family to track the fleet more easily. Our group has always had a really good relationship with the Coast Guard because we've had good communication with them, and having trackers in our comm plan will go a long way to making them feel comfortable.

If you have any questions or concerns that you'd like to discuss with me privately, give me a call at 503-490-3305.

brianb
05-18-2012, 10:02 AM
Hello All,

Another acceptable solution, without impact on the RC, is to allow skippers to turn trackers off at will. Please add this to the rules amendments.

Regards,

Brian


Hello All,

I have a few concerns about tracker data availability on deck. In my mind it is a huge advantage to have near real time data of your competitions moves. For those with satellite service they potentially have this visibility, at great expense. This advantage will not be available to all, or at least not this boat. A 24 hour update has been the norm, or possibly a 12 hour update. Unless the rules already state this, I would like to propose that access to vessel position data by competitors be limited to the period at check in time. If this is not acceptable than I would like to propose that tracker data will not be publicly available via the internet. Simply that the skipper of the each vessel can allow access to a list of email addresses, the USCG, and the RC. No other public users would have access to the data. The RC should publish a public update once or at most twice per day.

With regards to cost and safety: Cost - the trackers are cool and add to the public impression of the race, however the cost is prohibitive. For me it means bailing on the use of a Sat Phone as it is about the same cost.

Safety: This is getting out of hand. The layers of redundancy are adding more and more expense and are not necessary. The USCG has stated in every recent meeting , pre and post LSC disaster, that the EPIRB is the correct device. The combination of EPRIB and PLB enhances the picture further. Now we are adding yet another layer of safety at the price of more than a PLB. What action will the USCG take when a tracker fails ? None. They will wait for EPIRB confirmation of a real problem.

Please consider this and amend the rules accordingly.

Regards,

Brian Boschma
s/v redsky

pogen
05-18-2012, 03:15 PM
Feedback to members of the Fleet from tracker data appears to be forbidden by the NOR and Race Rules. Plus, it appears that as long as you make your position reports via email, the Fleet will not even be able to guess where you are at all.

I know though that in a number of races (like the Puerto Vallarta race (http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=133372)) where these same restrictions are in place, competitors get tracker data from the race website, and even admit to it on video.

If a number of boats are going the Satphone-only route, will be Committee be sending back the daily positions of all the boats? Or if you want to know the locations of your competition, you must have an SSB and be listening in during check-in? I guess a small SSB receiver would do the trick for that.

brianb
05-18-2012, 06:49 PM
Hi,

I re read rrc 6.02 and the Outside Assistance Section. I see nothing that limits referencing position data at any time. Thus making it possible to get position at the frequency of the satellite update. The limit is on the type of info, not on frequency.

Maybe the rule should be tightened up to only allow access to pos. Data at time of check in ?



Feedback to members of the Fleet from tracker data appears to be forbidden by the NOR and Race Rules. Plus, it appears that as long as you make your position reports via email, the Fleet will not even be able to guess where you are at all.

I know though that in a number of races (like the Puerto Vallarta race (http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=133372)) where these same restrictions are in place, competitors get tracker data from the race website, and even admit to it on video.

If a number of boats are going the Satphone-only route, will be Committee be sending back the daily positions of all the boats? Or if you want to know the locations of your competition, you must have an SSB and be listening in during check-in? I guess a small SSB receiver would do the trick for that.

ronnie simpson
05-18-2012, 09:26 PM
Brianb, I had a lot of your same concerns and brought them up to Rob, as I'm sure others have done as well. I also mentioned doing something like Transpac last year and having all of the yellow brick trackers on a 6 hour delay online, until the first boat finishes, then it goes to real time. That would alleviate any tactical advantage to try to follow things online.

The consensus of the conversation is that it would be expressly prohibited to either check the online tracker positions or receive any info from family or friends, in regards to the tracker positions. This would be considered outside assistance and is strictly prohibited. The only position updates available to all skippers are the email position reports and listening on the ssb.

My vote was to just have tracker positions be available online, in real time, to make it exciting for people to follow the race. It's a Corinthian sailboat race. Helpfully no one will cheat and break the rules. Furthermore, it's a solo race. None of us have the time to sit at a nav statin and surf the web all day. Thats reserved for navigators on high dollar big boat programs.

brianb
05-18-2012, 11:20 PM
Hi Ronnie,

The rules should explicitly call out the limit on competitors reviewing the position data. My reading seems to indicate this is not explicitly excluded. Since there is no statement in the rules about trackers I am going to assume that we can operate in stealth mode at will. As far as time to review positions, one could easily create a script that would access position data hourly and display on a PC screen in autonomous fashion, taking no time to manage.

I don't know , but is there a means to petition the RC for proposed rule changes ?

Thanks,

Brian


Brianb, I had a lot of your same concerns and brought them up to Rob, as I'm sure others have done as well. I also mentioned doing something like Transpac last year and having all of the yellow brick trackers on a 6 hour delay online, until the first boat finishes, then it goes to real time. That would alleviate any tactical advantage to try to follow things online.

The consensus of the conversation is that it would be expressly prohibited to either check the online tracker positions or receive any info from family or friends, in regards to the tracker positions. This would be considered outside assistance and is strictly prohibited. The only position updates available to all skippers are the email position reports and listening on the ssb.

My vote was to just have tracker positions be available online, in real time, to make it exciting for people to follow the race. It's a Corinthian sailboat race. Helpfully no one will cheat and break the rules. Furthermore, it's a solo race. None of us have the time to sit at a nav statin and surf the web all day. Thats reserved for navigators on high dollar big boat programs.

ronnie simpson
05-19-2012, 09:35 AM
when we are all at the Corinthian Yacht Club the day before the race, there will be a sit-down meeting with the RC and every skipper that is 100% mandatory. Rob Tryon's biggest priority, besides safety, is the Corinthian spirit: no one should cheat and no one should have to protest at the end. Rob has until just before the race to amend the SI's. When those SI's were written, Yellowbrick trackers weren't part of the equation. Now they are, so I would fully expect Rob to address the issue very thoroughly. No need to petition the RC for a rule change. Rob reads this forum, so i'm guessing your petition was just filed. :D

As far as the stealth mode thing is concerned, I don't think that it will be an issue (I had the same concerns and was vocal about it. To be honest, I was originally very highly opposed to the idea of trackers because I didn't want to lose the ability to go into stealth mode for a bit.) With a firm rule that NO SKIPPER is allowed to access the position reports via the web, then no skipper will have access to yellowbrick data. so in regards to the other competitors, you'll be in stealth mode the whole time until you decide to check in again or send an email.

pogen
05-19-2012, 01:25 PM
Hi,

I re read rrc 6.02 and the Outside Assistance Section. I see nothing that limits referencing position data at any time.

11.02 During the Race, no yacht may receive private or publicly available internet-distributed information
regarding weather, currents, course routing or other tactical advice, with the following specific
exceptions:
[a] Receipt of publicly available radio weather broadcasts
[b] Diagrams commonly referred to as “weatherfax” generated by the U.S. National
Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration, or corresponding agencies of other
countries.
[c] Communication on open radio channels [without encryption] with other competitors, which
may consist of information such as current position, weather and sea conditions.
[d] Solicitation and receipt of information solely about the repair of any equipment on board,
but not including routing advice.
[e] Weather data commonly referred to as GRIB files, derived from weather models operated
by the U.S. National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration.
[f] The information about each yacht listed in RRC Rule 6.02 (but no other competitor data).


Competitor track and position data are "other tactical advice" and thus forbidden.

brianb
05-20-2012, 07:15 AM
Hi Dave,

11.02 (f) makes an exception for info listed in RRC 6.02, which is position data. Hence position data is an exception to this restriction, therefore one could receive data from outside the scheduled position updates. Am I missing something ?

Brian

John Hayward
05-20-2012, 05:31 PM
WOW!!! I havn't been on the forum for a while it seems..... As to the tracking info, I think from the posts this is *way* out of hand. I was comm boat for much of the last two races and I relayed all positions to the entire fleet twice a day, even positions received via sat phone or other. I have done the race twice and so don't think I am missing anything here. In a 2500 mile race, knowing positions every minute vs. twice a day is NOT going to give you the winning edge. I too think the Yellow Bricks are a needless expense and hope this doesn't set a precedent for future races since it seems that only a couple boats in the fleet were big on them. I personally don't give a damn one way or another if it's on my boat, but I would/will not pay for it and my biggest concern now it that the Coast Guard will now expect it in future races and it will become a requirement. If it's a requirement not a request, this is my last transpac. It would be safer still if we all had a chase boat following us in case of accident, but to me that totally opposed to the spirit and intent of the race. I view this race as all about preparation. Knowing your boat and having it properly prepared for all contigencies not hand holding.

Guess I wish I hadn't been off the forum for so long, I might have done more to oppose this idea. Seems like it's cast in granite now.......

John
Dream Chaser
Valiant 40

robtryon
05-20-2012, 10:19 PM
Hi guys,

To clarify, I've spoken with most of the skippers, and only two (I leave you to guess which two) were firmly opposed to trackers. Everyone else was either amenable to having them or were nearly insistent on them. So to say only a couple wanted them is erroneous. What the CG wants is to make sure that we have a clear and consistent line of communications with the boats so we/they know where they are at least twice a day. Having trackers in our comm plan will go a long way to ensuring our permit to race is approved. In '08, two boats 'went dark' when their comms failed. I suspect that not only were their families freaking out, but that Synthia had some very unpleasant conversations with the CG. That kind of thing absolutely cannot happen again, most especially this year. You think things are touchy now? As much as it goes against the grain of this very self-reliant group - and anyone who knows me knows that I'm well-entrenched in that camp - I believe trackers will give (almost) everyone a sense of security, as specious as it may be.

As for the rules, I definitely will be amending them, and not just to add the trackers. But thanks, Brian, for pointing out the confusing language of the two rules. I'll make sure that's clarified with the final set. The comm plan has not been published and won't be for a bit yet, but I can tell you now that we plan to do what Ronnie mentioned: delay the position reports on the website's tracking page by six hours. That said, as the comm plan will note, the ONLY way to legally get your competitors' positions is via SSB check-in. If you don't have an SSB and your wife gives them to you over the phone, you are cheating. If you download the position reports from the race's website, you are cheating. If you get them any other way than by listening to the roll call on SSB, you are cheating. And believe me, I will make that abundantly clear at the skippers meeting. I don't think anyone in this race wants to cheat, but if they did, they'll find a way to do it. We can't police anyone when they're in the middle of the ocean, so we all just have to believe that everyone else is as honorable as we want them to be.

Back in 1978, a group of nutjobs decided it would be fun to singlehand to Hawaii. The furor this whipped up was epic, to say the least. Nearly everyone not actively involved with the race thought it was nothing short of a suicide mission. It was taken for granted that most of them would die before it was over. Thirty-four years later and the SHTP has not suffered a single death. Trackers won't keep that from happening, but consider this: During that first running, the comms were limited to VHF radio, so there essentially were no comms. When I did the race in '08, the big controversy was SSB vs. sat phone. I'm going to bet that when someone suggested requiring SSB back in '00 or so, there was a lot of opposition to that as well (I actually know one personally who was vehemently opposed to it). Technology changes and advances and eventually we have to embrace it. Anyone out there still using a rotary phone or typewriter?

When I took over the RC duties, I slashed the proposed entry fees by half, hoping to not only attract a big fleet but to also help keep the costs down, as I know how they can sky rocket. So believe me when I tell you that I agonized over this decision. It made me sick to call folks and tell them that I needed $300 more for this seemingly unimportant piece of equipment. And also believe this: If SPOT trackers were guaranteed to reach Hawaii, I'd just buy them all for you and cut down on the mai tais at tree time. But they're not, so our options were severely limited.

Again, I would ask that anyone who has questions or concerns to please call me directly at 503-490-3305.

ronnie simpson
05-20-2012, 11:09 PM
just to clarify for others, but when you said that the ONLY way to legally receive competitor's positions was through SSB check-ins.

some boats might be sat phone only, can't they receive a twice daily email with all competitor's positions from the RC or comm boat, whoever sends it out?

Critter
05-21-2012, 08:31 AM
Well put, Rob. BTW, I still use a rotary phone occasionally. And a slide rule.

robtryon
05-21-2012, 09:20 AM
just to clarify for others, but when you said that the ONLY way to legally receive competitor's positions was through SSB check-ins.

some boats might be sat phone only, can't they receive a twice daily email with all competitor's positions from the RC or comm boat, whoever sends it out?

Short answer: no. SSB only.

cafemontaigne
05-21-2012, 09:55 AM
I'm not excited about shelling out $300 at the moment for an item of no value to me on the boat, and which I don't even get to keep, but I have a bunch of family and friends who will be excited to hear we have trackers. I think it will make the race more interesting to follow, and maybe that will be good for the race in the long run (more entries? more sponsors?).

As for the cheating aspect... Seriously? I hardly even know what to do with everybody's 12-hour positions... But a 6-hour delay seems to put an end to that concern.

When we used the yellowbrick trackers on Swiftsure, I had three concerns with them:
1) They were in a little bag that clipped on to the stanchion with a plastic buckle. This seems a little flimsy for SHTP.
2) They had an annoying flashing green light. It's a pain while night sailing, and even if you tape it over, the bag is translucent enough that you can still see it.
3) Supposedly it goes into sleep mode every 24 hours so you have to reset it. To see the reset button, you can't tape over the blinking light.

Hopefully the units used here are different and don't have these shortcomings.

BobJ
05-21-2012, 12:58 PM
Rob's Really a Racer:

I picked up your R/C yesterday at the Gabriels. Ruben and Robbie's place is very much a combo of Moore's Reef and the Wizard's Chicken Coop, but with real chickens. There are Moore parts all over the place - R & R have one each plus the Buffalo - and there are indeed chickens. I suggested a picata would be nice but was informed these are pet chickens. There's one I'm sure Ruben would take with him to Hawaii, but your R/C reminded him that no pets are allowed. (Can you imagine hearing that in the background during the SSB net?)

I figured Rob needed a daysail on Ragtime! - I was right. One thing I discovered is that Rob really is a racer. I gave him an upwind target and soon realized he was fixated on the knot meter - a few minutes later he beat the target by 2/10 of a knot. Well bless my dodger'n solar panels! We flew the 2A, sailed on AP for awhile including several gybes and a douse in 20+, and generally had a fine day out.

We talked about many of you and I have to say I'm really going to miss being part of this one. Rob allowed as how I could do a couple of boat inspections.

After hearing about the tracker deal yesterday I've been mulling it over. I agree with Rob that an amendment to the RR&C's is probably necessary - that document was not written with trackers in mind. My personal opinion is that trackers are for the Dept. of Homeland Security and your fans at home, and should be irrelevant to the racers. Ronnie and Brian are probably right - technically it isn't illegal to get the position information listed in 6.02. My recollection is we didn't want to cause a rules violation when relaying information during the SSB net. However, there was an intentional preference given to the SSB (transceiver) boats. If you insisted on only taking a satphone, you gave up the ability to get all the boat positions unless you also took an SSB receiver (like the Minis do). It's a significant additional burden to the comm boat(s) and shore station to deal with the satphone data (I was the shore station for most of the 2010 race), and the comm boats are also racing.

In response to Adrian, I had a YellowBrick during the LongPac, attached to one of the stern pulpits. It got a bit damp. Once I remembered to remove the little magnet from the bottom (don't store it by your compass or fluxgate) it worked fine and I never noticed a flashing green light or need to reset it. Hopefully you will get the same model.

John Hayward
05-21-2012, 06:10 PM
I just talked to Rob and found out the tracker is no longer an optional piece of equipment for this race it is now required. I am not willing to have it on board under these circumstances (on philisophical not economic grounds) so I am dropping out. Guess 2010 was my last Transpac. No chance of catching up with The General now.

John Hayward
05-21-2012, 07:12 PM
We don't have a thread about the comm plan but since you are all now *required* to carry the transponder is a twice daily checkin still necessary? The *only* purpose of the comm plan and checkins was to let the coasties know where we were. If that is being done for us automatically, is a twice daily roll call necessary with penalties for non-compliance???

BobJ
05-21-2012, 08:27 PM
John, the situation is critical here. As we speak the Coasties have closed the Gate to racers while US Sailing investigates the Low Speed Chase casualty. I didn't ask the details from Rob yesterday but pulling the permit is probably a bitch, especially for a single-handed race to Hawaii.

Unless you just don't want to, please do the race. It just won't be the same without you. I'd do it if I could, tracker or not - I'd just ignore the damn thing back there like I did for LongPac. Nothing else changes, roll-calls as always . . . "HARRIER . . . "

John Hayward
05-21-2012, 10:51 PM
Hi Bob,

Thanks, you have always been a friend and I respect your thoughts. In this case, we must agree to disagree. I feel we are already *way* to far down the path of the coasties (government) telling us what we can and can't do. They are supposed to be there to help us if we need help, not to tell us what we can and can't do, or so I thought. What next, if we want to day sail past Bonita on our own, will we need permission?

When I did this race in 2008, I knew nothing about the "background stuff". I did not know we needed permits. I still do not know why a private club "needs" permits to run a race, rally or social event to HI?????? I was niave enough to think all the requirements were there just to keep us safe, not to just satisfy an insurance company or the coasties.

Part of the appeal of the race to me was the fact that I was "on my own". If I screwed up or was not properly prepared I was going to have to deal with it "on my own." This no longer appears to be the attitude. We must let big brother *know* where *everyone* is all the time even though Barbara Euser has been blacked out for 2 races and made it to HI just fine. If we rely on the YellowBricks and they crap out, what then??? If a YellowBrick stops giving position reports do the coasties start a search and rescue automatically, NO!!!!!! Why is it so damned essential then????? There has been no talk of eliminating the twice daily checkins via HF or SatPhone..... What does this realistically gain anyone racing or onshore in terms of peace of mind. To me it's just another thing that can go wrong, that I can't control, that costs money and that Jan will have to worry about if it goes dark.

I retrospect, I am really glad that I got to do two races. Had the current thinking been in place in 2008 I probably would have had to just sail to HI on my own.

My biggest regret at this point is the fact that I already spent over 5 grand on things "just for this race" including $600 this morning for a sat phone SIM card that I now have no use for. Actually that's not true. My biggest regret is something big that I enjoyed enough to want to do 3 times has been changed in a way that makes it undesireable for me to do again.

Things evolve. Guess this is the way of the future? I would have sailed to HI the first time alone but thought I would learn something by participating in a race. I did, and the camradarie was great!!! This is why I did it the second time and why I was planning on doing it again this year. I didn't go the first time because someone would be "watching out for me" or "holding my hand" and the more of that I encounter, the less interested I am in participating. Seems to me to violate the whole concept of "Singlehanded Sailing"...... Guess I am in the minority, but I'm comfortable with that.

Thanks for the worry.

John

BobJ
05-21-2012, 11:45 PM
John, here's a thread where this was discussed. There's some chaff but if you can get through that, I think you'll find we're mostly in agreement:

http://www.pressure-drop.us/forums/showthread.php?2508-investigation-of-LSC-ocean-racing-ban...

Post 32 from "Thing-Fish" answered my question about the Coast Guard's legal authority to require and if they choose, withhold permits. The Coast Guard has always had this authority (since 1908 I think). Reading this probably won't sway your decision but at least you'll know I'm not willingly caving on the trackers. I just want the race and it's great traditions to continue.

I will speculate that for some participants, there is a "look at me" aspect now that makes trackers desireable. I prefer the "dark side of the moon" aspect of the race and I think many former participants did as well.

Ragnar
05-22-2012, 09:41 PM
Wow. This thread is full of surprises. I guess I need to check this more often.

Hi Rob, by now I'm sure you're regretting volunteering for your role. Please know I'm sensitive to your position, and thanks for all your work.

First, regarding the Yellowbrick trackers. It sounds as though the trackers are in response to a potential threat to not provide a permit for the race. I'm with John Hayward on this - I really don't understand how they help actual safety. If they are for safety, would someone please explain the logic? It escapes me. If they aren't helping safety and it's a political panacea then why would the USCG really care? If it's so the RC and the USCG can say: "see we're doing something to improve safety," then I call bullshit on this whole effort. Someone should sit down with the USCG & figure out what would really help improve saftey. This is a poor way to learn from and honor those lost on the Farallones. If they are for publicity, friends & family, OK fine then make the trackers optional this year since this is a costly last minute change.

Second, this thread apparently revealed (to me anyway) that boats without an SSB receiver will not be receiving position reports. This is clearly penalizing boats with satphones only, which is quite a surprise. It seems to me that if you want to run a fair race, you should either provide position reports to satphone only boats, have mandated SSB receivers earlier on, or not allowed satphones at all. You can do what you want, but I would think you would want to run a fair race. Fairness before camaraderie? If you are an SSB boat and just barely beat at satphone only boat, would you feel like you beat him fair and square? After all the time, money & effort spent getting to Hanalei, tragic doubts could remain.

Third, now that I've completely pissed you off, I look forward to having you pass my last minute inspection!

Cheers,

Whitall Stokes
Slacker

Pogo2USA806
05-22-2012, 11:20 PM
Short answer: no. SSB only.

you are not serious: for boats equipped with sat phone only, there will not be any broadcast of everyone's position? How is this fair racing? This is seriously wrong. When I signed up and talked to Rob, he said that racers could choose sat phone or SSB, without any preferences. Now that I have chosen sat phone and have no plans to get an SSB, I am penalized. Excuse my french, but this sucks, especially for a race that pretends to fly high and clear the "corinthian spirit". Why can't a simple text message with racers position being sent to all with sat phones? It creates 5 minutes to get the list and no time at all to send GPS positions...weird, and unacceptable.

as for the trackers, I agree with cafemontaigne, "idefix". I find it completely useless safety wise but definitely good entertainment....It seems that most of us agree on that. I have no money left to spend in this race and another $300 30 days before the start is definitely bad news. If we all agree that the trackers is definitely entertaining, why doesn't the viewers pay for it?

Rob, one last thing, I was lucky enough to check the forum today. I have very little time to be on the computer and never received any of those emails you mentioned...

I have never raced the transpac alone or in a crewed boat. I am looking forward to it. My only objective is to reach Hawaii and hug my wife and my boy as soon as I will arrive. I will be racing "myself". This being said, if a race there should be, we should all have the same access to outside resources and make sure that it is fair to everyone.

To be continued...

Jerome Sammarcelli
Team Open Sailing
Pogo 2 USA 806

BobJ
05-23-2012, 07:53 AM
you are not serious: for boats equipped with sat phone only, there will not be any broadcast of everyone's position?

Speaking as a former SHTP racer and not in any official capacity:

SHTP has never had a dedicated comm boat. Hopefully three or four racing participants will offer to compromise their own race somewhat to help with the SSB net, accept radio relays, read incoming e-mails, write down boat positions and attempt to e-mail those to shore. This is a race-what-you've-got, let's work together to make it happen thing. For those of you who think you are entitled to receive every boat's position twice a day, ask yourself if YOU are willing to dedicate yourself to collect and disseminate that data while racing your own boat, because that's how it happens.

In the two SHTP's I did, getting the satphone-only boat positions (and there were only 3-4 such boats each year) was always a hit-or-miss proposition. While it sounds simple, it takes someone on shore to collect those e-mails twice a day and send them back out to the volunteer comm boats, who might be mid-broach at roll-call time. As I wrote earlier, I did the on-shore part last race, and I was tied to my computer twice a day because for the sat-phone boat positions to be read they had to be collected and sent back out to the fleet in time for the SSB net. It was about a half-hour window twice a day.

The sat-phone check-in option was reluctantly added as an alternative to requiring that every boat have an SSB, but it makes the job harder. Therefore the intentional bias towards all boats having SSB. We've had this argument every SHTP and when you get into the details (which new participants usually haven't dealt with), you come to understand the problem. Just last race Pacific Cup finally allowed non-SSB check-in's, and only for the double-handed boats, and THEY have a dedicated, non-racing comm boat shadowing the fleet. It ain't as easy as it looks.

Jerome, I'm thrilled to see you in the race with your Mini. Isn't it true that Mini's have to carry SSB receivers? Can't you listen to all the positions that way?

Paul Elliott
05-23-2012, 08:25 AM
Just last race Pacific Cup finally allowed non-SSB check-in's, and only for the double-handed boats, and THEY have a dedicated, non-racing comm boat shadowing the fleet. It ain't as easy as it looks.

Actually, in the past several races, the Pac Cup comms boat has also been a racer. In 2008 and 2010, (and 2012) VALIS was volunteer comms boat. In some previous races the comms boat was a non-racer, but not since at least 2006. True, VALIS isn't a hard-core competitive boat, but we do try to do our best. In my first race (2006) Cayenne was volunteer comms boat, and she was competitively raced.

That said, I understand Bob's position on this. This year the Pac Cup is accepting position reports via SSB, satphone voice, and any sort of email. To handle these non-SSB position reports requires shoreside people to transcribe the satphone voice messages, process the email, to format all this so it can be emailed to the comms boat. The comms boat announces all the non-SSB positions during the morning roll-call (we have just one roll call), then sends the combined reports back to the shoreside support person, who will (for this race) email the positions to those who have requested them. There will be a several-hour delay on these email reports. If a boat wants the freshest positions, they must at least listen to the SSB net. All this takes preparation, programming, time, and energy -- shoreside and definitely on the comms boat. I spent well over two hours every day running the position-reporting stuff, and I had five other crewmembers to cover for me. For a singlehander, I would want to see the comms duties be as simple as possible.

We are carrying Yellowbrick trackers, with a varying delay on the tracking website (details TBD). Most of our racers like the trackers, as they are appreciated by family and friends. They also provide a backup position report. I don't know if the USCG figured into the decision to carry the trackers, but it wouldn't surprise me.

BobJ
05-23-2012, 09:01 AM
Thanks Paul - and a fine racer VALIS is, too.

Slack, I'd attach the actual CG Permit from 2010 but I don't want to overstep by bounds. I can tell you that in bold letters it put the burden squarely on the Race Organizer to maintain constant postion information on every racer. If a racer was one hour late for one roll-call the CG was to get involved, doing call-outs for the missing boat and if unsuccessful, actually launching a S&R. I read the permit to everyone at the final skippers' meeting before the 2010 race. We had one boat that couldn't start and another turn around a few hours into the race because they wouldn't be able to make roll-calls reliably.

Many folks here know I'm not a fan of trackers, but if they make it possible for the SSS to keep the race going, I'm okay with carrying them (reluctantly).

And no, I'm not at all pissed off. We've been through these arguments more times than you can imagine.

Ragnar
05-23-2012, 11:05 AM
If a racer was one hour late for one roll-call the CG was to get involved, doing call-outs for the missing boat and if unsuccessful, actually launching a S&R.

More surprises. Sorry, I'm new to all this permit stuff and I'm really struggling to find the logic of the embedded rules.

So if my boat's tracker and satphone/SSB or battery craps out, or if I oversleep, or if I leave my satphone off, or if I'm busy on deck getting an hourglass out of my spinnaker, or if I shouldn't leave the helm due to rough conditions, the CG launches a S&R? This is absurd on its face. What's the point of carrying an EPIRB? I can just imagine it, sailing along at 7 knots under spinnaker having a wonderful day and then here comes a CG helicopter. I'm sure they would hit me with a huge bill also.

Fat lotta good a tracker did for the crew of the Aegean, and would have been similarly useless to the crew of LSC. As singlehanders we already know about the importance of jacklines and tethers. We're back to the safety uselessness of trackers and this just being political to pacify the CG so they will let us go sailing. If this ridiculous nanny-state monitoring is a condition of the race, I'll have to seriously reconsider my participation. This flies in the face of the whole point of why I singlehand.

Finally, the PSSA also has roll-calls, but they are specifically not about safety. They are for position reporting and camaraderie only. If someone misses a roll-call we cannot assume they are in trouble and launch a S&R. Typically the boat is having radio issues. That is why we require PLBs and strongly suggest our racers wear them while on deck.

Rob, please confirm the above race requirement, or if the start location changes to Half-Moon Bay or what's going on here as I'd like to be able to make a decision fairly soon.

I'm really sad. I have a feeling I really would have enjoying sailing with you guys.

Thanks,

Whitall Stokes
Slacker

BobJ
05-23-2012, 11:49 AM
Whitall, most of us agree with you - the current situation with the local Coast Guard sucks. They really, really don't get what we do or why we do it, or how hard we try to look out for ourselves and our fellow solo skippers, or why it can't be made as absolutely safe as they would like it to be so they can look good to their superiors. It's a difficult time right now, but it will die down as it has before.

Historically the SHTP roll-calls have been for the same reasons as PSSA's. That's why I see the trackers as irrelevant to the skippers - things have gotten muddled because of skippers wanting to access the information about the other boats. I think that's been solved with the six-hour delay.

Anyway, don't take it out on the race or ultimately on yourself. You will enjoy the race and the comaraderie during roll call and in Hanalei - it's unmatched. It's killing me that I can't race this year.

In the races I did nearly every boat made every roll-call, and only one per day is required to avoid the time penalty. There are a lot of "ifs" in your last post.

Ragnar
05-23-2012, 03:47 PM
Hi Bob,

If it were just the faux-safety of the CG mandating trackers, that is one thing that I could probably swallow as it's just another piece of gear. But now I find out they also require notification if someone is over an hour late for roll-call and will launch an S&R effort if one's radio is out. This non-value added pre-emptive intrusion into private affairs is beyond what I am able to stomach. I really don't want to see a CG helicopter and a bill if I over-sleep after staying up all night dealing with issues. What else did they require in 2010 that I am not aware of? What will they require for this year give the LSC incident? I don't mean to sound like I'm taking it out on the race. I'm really taking it out on the CG, but I understand how I'm coming across.

I'm very aware of the arguments that say: "if the CG is expected to bail you out, then they rightly should have a say in how you conduct your race." I have two responses to this.
1) Yes, I agree with the logic. I'm all for regulation that improves safety. We seem to all be in agreement that is not the case here.
2) I don't expect the CG to bail me out if I get into trouble, nor do I understand the public interest in bailing me out. The risks I take are my responsibility alone, and I take responsibility for them. If I don't take care of myself, I'm fine with meeting my maker, and so is my wife.

Finally, I don't think I would be taking it out on myself. I don't have to do this race. I sail singlehanded in part as the self-reliance brings my life meaning. As the CG removes self-reliance, the meaning for me is reduced. To be honest reaching & running down to Hawaii doesn't feel like a huge challenge. I'm not competitive enough to have to win or anything like that. It's just something I would like to do as it's the longest SH race on the West Coast. You're right, it is a big disappointment as the boat and I are ready, and the time has been blocked out. But given the nonsensical & intrusive CG terms and conditions of your race that take away the meaning of singlehanded sailing for me, I'd be happier just sailing over to Hawaii or elsewhere on my own. Even if I'd miss the friendly competition and camaraderie of like-minded crazies like me. Maybe things will be more amenable in future editions of the race.

Anyway, Rob please let me know the CG's terms & conditions for the race.

Cheers,

Whitall

robtryon
05-23-2012, 10:38 PM
First of all, let me make it perfectly clear that the Coast Guard is not requiring trackers. I am requiring trackers as a positive response to the Coast Guard's wanting a better line of communication. We've always had a very good relationship with the CG and I intend to keep it that way. When I'm told that having trackers will "go a long way" in making the CG feel comfortable in signing off on our permit, I take that very seriously. We're in a very unique and extremely fluid position right now - we have US Sailing and a new advisory group made up of local sailors working with the CG, and we don't have a clue what the outcome will be. We don't even know if this weekend's Spinnaker Cup is happening yet!

What we do know is that we want to have a singlehanded race to Hawaii next month and I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure that happens. I'm sorry if anyone feels this is an intrusion on their self-reliance or self-sufficiency, but you'll still be sailing to Hawaii by yourself. The tracker isn't going to change that one iota.

I started singlehanding for the freedom I felt out there. It's the freest I've ever been. I did a lot of singlehanding without being part of an organization or race and I never carried an EPIRB, sat phone, liferaft, etc. To me safety is in my mind, it's not something I can buy. I was attracted to this race for many years and when it was my turn to participate, I was given the list of requirements. I found many of them distasteful but not so much as to stop me from joining. In fact, I wanted that belt buckle so bad that if the RC had required it, I would have stood on my head and sang show tunes throughout every seminar. Nothing was going to stop me from doing the race. I know that many of the racers this year feel the same way so I feel it's my responsibility to do everything I can to ensure the race starts off CYC on June 30 without a hitch.

As for the wording on the permit, we won't get it until a few days before the start. I have no idea what it will be, but can guess it will be similar to last time's which basically said we had to have daily contact with the racers. As for the 'hour late' check-in hypothetical, the trackers fix that issue. Also, remember that we have to get a permit from Hawaii CG as well, and that's dependent on getting the SF permit.

As far as the comm plan goes, that hasn't been written yet. There's concern from the boats only carrying sat phones that they won't get position updates. For the last couple of races, the sat phone folks have essentially been penalized, and maybe it's time to move beyond that. For what it's worth, my race would have been completely different had I not had an SSB. I have come to understand that it's essential to the spirit of this race, but others may not be as interested in that aspect of it. I'm looking at some options and I'd appreciate any feedback on ways to get the sat phone people position reports in a quick and efficient manner. I want the comms plan to be fair for everyone.

Critter
05-24-2012, 08:52 AM
Just to reinforce what Rob said: The Coast Guard has placed no new requirements on ocean races since the LSC incident. They've just asked - OK, directed - all the clubs, plus US Sailing, to take a close look at what they're doing.

algwind
05-24-2012, 09:33 AM
After reviewing the posts in this thread and discussing with Rob over the phone yesterday, I am realizing that the main discussion points are converging. Advances in technology make it possible to readily access positions for the entire fleet and this benefits the Coast Guard, the Race Committee and the Racers.

As long as we are going to have trackers, why not use them and the services offered by the provider to "broadcast" regular position reports to the entire fleet. Anyone including our comms boats, submitting an e-mail address would receive identical information, and this would be the only allowed method of receiving position information while racing. (I believe this eliminates the concerns on the effort of tabulating sat phone position reports; it is possible that the tracker provider would send the e-mails for us on a schedule). The comms boats would then read out positions during roll call; those interested in chatting after roll call would proceed as normal.

Check-ins via SSB or Sat Phone should still be required. Any equipment can fail, so in the event a tracker fails, check-ins are the best way to prevent unwarranted SAR missions. If radios or sat phones fail and check-ins are missed then the tracker data provides important information. Some of us will be carrying SSB, sat phone and a tracker, so all three would have to fail in the same time frame before going silent. I would be in favor of establishing a more specific protocol with the Coast Guard on SAR deployment. Clearly, the Coast Guard wants maximum situational awareness, but a threat to deploy 1 hour after a missed check-in seems a bit hollow. Why not go back to them and say that in exchange for carrying trackers we want a more sensible protocol. This could turn into a deeper discussion, but I for one, would be willing to divert my path to check out any nearby racer that had gone silent (no tracker data and no check-in), EPIRB or not. If we agree among the racers to something like this, then the Coast Guard should be willing to relax their deployment schedule.

Perhaps we can devote some time during the upcoming seminars to discussing. I am hopeful that those of you thinking of retiring over these issues will reconsider.

Al Germain
Bandicoot

BobJ
05-24-2012, 10:09 AM
Al, I know you were personally affected by the permit language in 2010. You did the right thing but it cost you, big-time. That notice language was sprung on us two days before the start in 2010 - I received the local CG permit on June 17th although I had applied for it months before (the start was June 19th). I couldn't say anything then because I was in my "official capacity" as R/C, but that one hour part was totally rediculous and inconsistent with everything this race has been for many of us. Had I been given any time to respond I would have asked them to get real and write something sensible.

So per your post, what seems to be the "logical next step" is a step too far for me. I personally hope trackers are a one-time band aid to get this race off and then we can go back to our roots.

Public apology to Rob: I went into this thread wanting to help but fear I've made it more difficult. I'm sorry.

Ragnar
05-24-2012, 10:41 PM
Regarding sending racer positions to satphone only boats, I would suggest emailing positions to all boats, satphone or SSB.

I did some preliminary web searching and it appears the USCG does not typically bill for S&R efforts, unless they are hoaxes. This is somewhat reassuring but someone should contact them.

So if we won't know the CG's conditions until a few days prior, that puts me in the position of having to get up there & be ready to go before I really know what's going on. Awkward.

"Gone Dark" policy is worth discussion among the race committee and then the USCG. We had a boat go dark for maybe 2 days during the Guadalupe Race after his tracker and satphone failed and he could not check in. We shrugged as we felt the probability of him being in real trouble was quite low. SPOTs have to be reset daily and we knew he had trouble charging his phone. Tracker failure and charging problems is all that has to happen to "go dark". I'm trying to imagine scenarios where a dark boat that has not lit off an EPIRB would be in need of outside assistance. The skipper would have to have fallen overboard without a PLB, or be unconscious or incapacitated to the point where he couldn't activate the EPIRB if he wanted to, or I guess the EPIRB could have failed also. My sense is that gear failure is a far more likely occurrence than these 3 scenarios combined.

But what to do to help the USCG? If a competitor is nearby they could attempt a drive-by based on a last-known position, but it seems that if a boat is dark it would be difficult to locate them except by serendipity. The same is true for the dark boat. Since this boat can't receive positions (unless they have a working SSB receiver as backup) he will be lucky to make physical contact with another boat. So, maybe to get the CG off our backs, satphone boats should carry a backup SSB receiver, SSB boats could carry either a satphone or separate receiver (independent of main electrical system) so if there are problems and they do go dark, they could receive position reports, and I'm sure the Comm boat would broadcast the closest boat's position to proceed towards so the dark boat could locate it. Not that I'm in favor of more equipment requirements, but if it gets the CG off our backs, then maybe.

Critter
05-25-2012, 09:05 AM
Not that I'm in favor of more equipment requirements, but if it gets the CG off our backs, then maybe.
I may be totally off base here, but I think you may be overestimating how much the Coast Guard is on your backs. As I wrote a few posts back, they have imposed no new requirements. Rob's addition of trackers was a voluntary initiative, a friendly gesture toward the CG as well as a cool feature for those who will be following the race and a huge labor savor for RC volunteers at home.

If he goes into the permitting process with the position that launching SAR on the basis of one or two missed checkins is unrealistic and impractical (easy for me to say, I know), and reminding CG that all the boats have EPIRBs, you ought to be able to have a communications protocol very similar to 2010.

Max

solosailor
05-30-2012, 03:02 AM
I've been Down Under for a few weeks so I'm a bit behind in chiming in.


The trackers we own will not work for a Hawaii race, and the last thing we need, with a big fleet and everyone watching so closely, is for a racer to go silent.Why would that be a bad thing? Yes trackers are neat for the viewing public and I will not deny that they provide a "last" position report for a boat that should be fresher than the daily check-in.

But I remember the caveman days of the SHTP, cira way back in 2000 when check-ins were voluntary and many in the fleet went dark every race.... I did for 8 days as did others for even longer. FYI, EPIRBS were also not available for the first 20 years of this race. Then we required daily check-in with a time penalty if you didn't, now if you miss a check-in all hell breaks loose.

Remember, just because an electronics gizmo isn't working doesn't mean that racer is in distress. And I think you are all forgetting the failure rate of these devices and usually at least a few of these trackers stop working every race that has utilized them, EVERY race.

If the coast guard isn't requiring them then I don't understand why we are trying to make nice with them by adding this unnecessary device that also adds considerable expense a month and change before the race? If we are adding it for entertainment purposes, fine but don't be delousonal that they will add any safety.

The USCG doesn't have a right or legal mandate to tell us that our race even needs check-ins at all, which we don't. Please cite the Federal regulation that states the USCG, to issue a race permit, requires more than a sounding device, pdf and 3 red flares, or such?

We should run our race as we see fit, not try to fix something that is NOT broken.

The slippery slope - nanny state saling continues to gain momentum. Are we to require and utilize every piece of "supposed" safety gear that comes along? Where will it end?

Is it really true that if a boat misses a check-in the USCG goes into rescue mode, even though no one has called out for assistance?

How about this scenario... A racers entire electronics system fails, his sat phone dies, the tracker dies and the USCG goes into action even though the boats EPIRB hasn't been set off..... Then they boat is located or finishes in Hawaii without issue but the USGC is now really upset that they spends 100s of thousands on a false search.

The SSS is setting themselves up for a bad situation, mark my words. Self reliance is a thing of the past I guess.

jakmang
05-30-2012, 10:19 AM
I have been following this thread with great interest. I have not done the race, but have spent some time at sea. I can see both sides of the argument and the emotions they provoke. In my view, there are the following points in regard to trackers:

Cons:

- Invasion of privacy.
- Cost.
- Possible failure causing problems.
- Due to checkins, everybody knows roughly where you are anyway.

Pros
- Family and spectators like it.
- Race committee likes it.
- Throws the Coasties a bone when there may be public pressure to act.
- Trackers did provide evidence in the Ensenada/Aegean disaster.
- May help an investigation if you are rundown by a ship.
- They might replace the requirement for SSB or satphone checkins in the future which would be cheaper and probably more reliable.
- Coast Guard will probably not monitor them.

In my opinion, safety would much better served by requiring AIS transmitters. Ships and competitors can see you if you are too close. Contact goes into the ship's log. You can call a contact by name. I have had close encounters with ships both with and without AIS and I would much rather have it.

As for self reliance, that is an attitude. I know some of the people in this group. I believe that they would do anything to resolve an issue themselves. I would cite Sparky and to a lesser degree Saraband as examples. Self reliance was probably lost with the advent of GPS, EPIRBS and the availability weather reports.

There have been serious problems on the return trips for the last two races. The Coast Guard was called in to help.

I'm not sure that I know of anyone who wouldn't push the button on that EPIRB, should the ultimate need arise.

Respectfully,
-jak

solosailor
05-30-2012, 06:06 PM
In my opinion, safety would much better served by requiring AIS transmitters. Ships and competitors can see you if you are too close. Contact goes into the ship's log. You can call a contact by name. I have had close encounters with ships both with and without AIS and I would much rather have it.This is even worse in my opinion. First, I don't know of any AIS transponders under $600+. 2nd they have to be on all the time dramatically changing the energy budget, especially of smaller boats. I was a very early adopter of an AIS receiver, that I turn on as I see fit. However in the ocean I often have "all" instruments off during the day, except for the VHF and possibly autopilot to conserve electrons and maximize solar charging. Then there is the competitive equation.... If I decide to gybe south to move away from the high I don't need to broadcast it to all competitors 50-100 miles away. They can find out on the next check-in my position.

There are lots of great electronic

Pogo2USA806
06-05-2012, 10:03 PM
As far as the comm plan goes, that hasn't been written yet. There's concern from the boats only carrying sat phones that they won't get position updates. For the last couple of races, the sat phone folks have essentially been penalized, and maybe it's time to move beyond that. For what it's worth, my race would have been completely different had I not had an SSB. I have come to understand that it's essential to the spirit of this race, but others may not be as interested in that aspect of it. I'm looking at some options and I'd appreciate any feedback on ways to get the sat phone people position reports in a quick and efficient manner. I want the comms plan to be fair for everyone.

Sending texts or emails to sat phone is possible and FREE on both ends (sender and receiver). I am really hoping that positions will therefore be broadcasted to sat phone racers.
Thanks

jerome