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AlanH
11-19-2012, 06:09 PM
This is something that I've thought about more than once but never really went anywhere with. I kind of doubt that there's anything like enough traction to make it fly, but....


If you all were to dream up a single or doublehanded boat that would be specific to the USA.... a boat that could handily do races in So Cal, SF Bay, The Columbia river, Puget Sound, Chesapeake Bay, Florida, New Orleans, The Great Lakes AND do the SHTP and the Bermuda 1-2...a "one design".... what would it look like?

Mini's are too small, don't really go to windward very well, break too much and cost too much.
Open 40's are WAY too big.
Figaro II's are in the ball park, but still way to expensive at $120K+

Probably the closest thing is the Express 27, but if you all were going to update it, how would you do it, what would you change, what would it look like?

Ragnar
11-28-2012, 08:35 PM
Here is my wish list:
- LOA somewhere around 10 meters
- Direction stability
- Strong
- Well balanced performance: upwind, downwind, reaching
- Large main, small non-overlapping jib, masthead & fractional spinnakers, outboard shrouds
- No running backs
- Small cockpit w/ open transom
- Tiller
- One rudder
- Diesel inboard w/ retractable prop
- D/L 120-150
- Small
- Chines (because they look cool)
- Comfy interior with Headroom & "hang out" factor
- Canting keel or a small amount of water ballast would be great for upwind comfort, if the systems can be simple & robust
- Weird, but I'm ambivalent about sprits

I guess a few boats have aspects of this, but none have the whole package. Boats that dance around my wish list are ones like:
Olson 34, J92, J105, Col 32

Critter
11-29-2012, 09:55 AM
Pogo 1050? Boy, if I had any money ...

koh samia
11-30-2012, 11:09 AM
The new Pogo 30 looks very nice too... that swinging keel...

I've been reading a lot about pacific proas lately, first drawings of what could be a very interesting one: Bieker's 32' proa (http://www.biekerboats.blogspot.com/2012/11/32-foot-proa.html) .

Different but very interesting...

Ragnar
11-30-2012, 10:10 PM
The new Pogo 30 looks very nice too... that swinging keel...

I've been reading a lot about pacific proas lately, first drawings of what could be a very interesting one: Bieker's 32' proa (http://www.biekerboats.blogspot.com/2012/11/32-foot-proa.html) .

Different but very interesting...

Well, whomever created the preliminary drawings doesn't seem to know how a proa tacks. The rig has to swing 180 degrees.

I remember Rory Nugent's proa in Bermuda in 1979. There is a reason you don't see them around much. Sure enough he capsized less than a year later in mid-ocean.

koh samia
12-01-2012, 11:54 PM
Well, whomever created the preliminary drawings doesn't seem to know how a proa tacks. The rig has to swing 180 degrees.

Agree, but it's a "pacific proa" design, and those keep the ama always to windward, so the boom rotates to leeward and then they hoist a jib on the 'new' bow.

And, if you google "Russell Brown" and "proa" you may find pages like:

http://www.clcboats.com/life-of-boats-blog/russell-brown-on-proas.html
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEFFS6cA5jQ

Pretty impressive..


I remember Rory Nugent's proa in Bermuda in 1979. There is a reason you don't see them around much. Sure enough he capsized less than a year later in mid-ocean.

Yes (an "atlantic proa" in this case, with the ama always to leeward), there have been lots of multihulls that have capsized or monohulls that lost their keel, including some proas, but I think that should not DSQ them.. just need to keep looking for the right settings for fast-safe trips...

In any case, I think the pacific proa (with ama always to windward) is more like a monohull with the keel just out of the water (ie: speed-dream) than a catamaran... and I really like it! :)

AlanH
12-04-2012, 02:03 PM
I've always thought that 28 feet was about the right size.

Bepox 8.50

http://www.nauticaltrek.com/images/3/2194.jpg

http://www.avoile.com/annonces/images/listings/2012-02/voilier_bepox_850-1329859468-692-d_pic.jpg

http://imagenes.cosasdebarcos.com/barcosOcasion/0/6/3/8/voiliers-bepox-850-42355080121550576567685148684565x.jpg

I think that Bepox is out of business. The 8.50's seem to go used in Europe for about 40-45,0000 euros. I think it would be really interesting to hand a list of parameters to a well known designer, maybe Jim Antrim and see what he came up with.

Personally?

27-29 feet
large mainsail, small foretriangle, running backstays not really wanted but I'd deal with it if the rig had to have them.
skippers choice of asymmetrical or symmetrical chutes
balanced performance... not just an offwind rocket
no canting keel, no water ballast. Simple boat
Disp/Length 120-150
sleeping facilities for two, some way to set up a stove at sea, an actual chart table, or nav station of some kind.
relatively small cockpit
coachroof extends 2 feet back over cockpit to form an alcove so you can be on deck, but really out of the spray.
tiller-steered

BobJ
12-04-2012, 03:44 PM
I know non-overlappers are all the rage but I'd really miss being able to fly a #1 when it's light - and even sometimes when it's not. A bigger jib on a reaching lead (or JT) and reefed main is the bomb on my boat in the ocean.

When you guys get done describing your perfect boat it's a J/92 . . . but I'm biased!

Phil MacFarlane
12-04-2012, 05:50 PM
I like Bob's boat but. Isn't the boring Wylie Cat 30 the perfect boat?

Wylieguy
12-04-2012, 07:30 PM
I like Bob's boat but. Isn't the boring Wylie Cat 30 the perfect boat?

I agree, naturally, about the Wyliecat 30 as the nearly perfect singlehander. Boring? Not really, but I understand different folks have different levels of boredom. For such a simple appearing rig, I can only say the infinite sail shape possibilities keep me pretty busy most of the time. Easy to be lulled into complacency. The pluses are pretty evident. Other than "boredom" there are a few minuses. One is the complication to vane steering created by the sheet when jibing and tacking. The "sheet of death" sweeps most anything above the lifelines as it comes across. I've thought out several ways to mitigate this issue, but since I don't plan a singlehanded sail to Hawaii, I haven't gone further than diagrams. The others I might cite are also minor - in my opinion. As always, I'm open to taking anyone interested out on a Wyliecat to se for themselves. I do caution that looking up at a mast that's not standing stiff and straight can bring a Viagra moment to some traditional sailors.
Pat Broderick "NANCY" Wyliecat 30 #28890

AlanH
12-04-2012, 08:44 PM
I know non-overlappers are all the rage but I'd really miss being able to fly a #1 when it's light - and even sometimes when it's not. A bigger jib on a reaching lead (or JT) and reefed main is the bomb on my boat in the ocean.

When you guys get done describing your perfect boat it's a J/92 . . . but I'm biased!

Just because I want a small foretriangle doesn't mean that we can't have overlapping headsails!

BTW, I would also instigate a rule that said something along the lines of... "5 sails, maximum, plus a storm headsail if the rig carries a headsail, may be on the boat at the start of every race". OK, maybe 6 sails.

Something like the Class 950, but really an 850 to keep the costs down as much as possible. I'm honestly thinking back to how many years of combined SSS racing and thinking that the Moore 24 and the Express 27 were the most popular boats. There are reasons, obviously. So what would an Express 27, designed NOW, specifically for single or doublehanded sailing, look like?

Hey, just because the Wyliecats are practically unbeatable in the Bay doesn't mean a thing, right? :) :cool:

Phil MacFarlane
12-04-2012, 10:14 PM
A very nice offer Pat thanks. I've sailed on one and I do think there the perfect boat for short or single handing. I'm just not smart enough yet to own one. :)
Alan, the 650 mini class only allows eight sails. One must be a trisail and one a storm jib. You gotta have a main so that leaves five. Most have a code zero. So that leaves room for two jibs and two kites or what ever you think you might need.

The more I think about that Wyliecat...

BobJ
12-04-2012, 10:49 PM
I think the biggest advantage to the WylieCat is the number of them in SSS and the chance to race one-design. That potential exists for the J/105's as well, perhaps as a double-handed division. If most of the 105's who've done our races came out together there would be enough. OD racing, especially on SSS-type courses, is more fun than racing handicapped.

Regarding what a modern-day Express 27 might look like, I could see it being a sprit boat to make solo spinnaker work easier, and maybe more nicely finished inside, but it's a great boat as-is. I'd really want an inboard though.

I know the Moores do fine offshore but that three extra feet in the E-27 makes a huge difference.

If I couldn't own my boat I'd probably own an E-27 or Olson 30 - but I'd still want the sprit. It has spoiled me.

Wylieguy
12-04-2012, 11:10 PM
A very nice offer Pat thanks. I've sailed on one and I do think there the perfect boat for short or single handing. I'm just not smart enough yet to own one. :)
Alan, the 650 mini class only allows eight sails. One must be a trisail and one a storm jib. You gotta have a main so that leaves five. Most have a code zero. So that leaves room for two jibs and two kites or what ever you think you might need.

The more I think about that Wyliecat...

Alan, There are two on the market, "Sylkie" (see Lat. 36 Classies) and mine (quietly if the right buyer comes along). What I'd really like is a Wylie-style boat around 21/22 feet. A "drop keel" so I could keep it on a trailer, day sail/race. I'm pretty much finished with any ocean racing beyond the Farallones or HMB.
Gordie and I have been talking about converting an appropriate hull, but haven't come to any definite conclusion. I thinking something like a Venture 21 hull (I know, I know! But a well-prepared and sailed V21 will plane.), but Gordie's not very enthused. I have a Merit 22 someone donated to the cause, but I'm not sure it's the hull form I'm looking for
In the meantime if you'd like to join in on a GGYC or SYC Mid-Winter in Jan/Feb/March, let me know.
Pat

AlanH
12-05-2012, 11:51 AM
How about a Wyliecat 27 with a long strut/bulb for a keel?

I hate to lose the spinnakers, though.
Wyliecat 27 with a relatively ginormous sprit and a fractional assy?

BobJ
12-05-2012, 11:57 AM
They make an 18 (up to 21') that planes. No kite though. (http://www.wyliecat.com/models/wylie_18.html)

Ragnar
12-30-2012, 10:17 AM
Personally?

27-29 feet
large mainsail, small foretriangle, running backstays not really wanted but I'd deal with it if the rig had to have them.
skippers choice of asymmetrical or symmetrical chutes
balanced performance... not just an offwind rocket
no canting keel, no water ballast. Simple boat
Disp/Length 120-150
sleeping facilities for two, some way to set up a stove at sea, an actual chart table, or nav station of some kind.
relatively small cockpit
coachroof extends 2 feet back over cockpit to form an alcove so you can be on deck, but really out of the spray.
tiller-steered

I really like this list. Down here we do spend a lot of time going upwind. Offshore. In Winter. I'd like more waterline. Also, I really like a place to stand up down below. My back can only take so much.

pogen
12-30-2012, 12:34 PM
what would an Express 27, designed NOW, specifically for single or doublehanded sailing, look like?

Like a Figaro II (http://www.beneteau.com/Sailing-Yachts/One-Design/Figaro-BENETEAU-II)?

Philpott
12-30-2012, 05:31 PM
Jim Antrim is building a boat with Cree Partridge at the Berkeley Marine Center for the SF2SF race in 2015. Of course it's bigger than 27' by a bit.

JAMcDonald
12-30-2012, 07:55 PM
The Seascape 27 looks pretty promising. Even "affordable" (60k sans sails & electronics, not including shipping or and import duty if any).

marinergeek
01-04-2013, 06:12 PM
Take the Express and...
add some form of inboard, the Columbia 32 has a retractable design that looks nice.
add a bridge deck to the cockpit, a decent hatch would be nice.
add a small bulb to the keel to improve the stability index (107). The boat doesn't need it but soon the rules will require it.
add a forward crash bulkhead.
add foam (25 cu ft) for positive buoyancy.

JAMcDonald
01-04-2013, 06:32 PM
Not too different from the Antrim 27 actually, is it. Perhaps too powered up for singlehanding.

AlanH
01-07-2013, 01:07 PM
Well mini's are ridiculously overpowered, but then I really am not interested in sailing a mini, nor a 24-26 foot version of a mini. For one thing, I want a boat that goes to windward well, and for another...while I don't mind some spaghetti in the cockpit, I don't need the kind of twiddly-bits-all-over-the-place that you get with a mini. Also, some breakage is inevitable, but Phils experience with breakage in WAFI is kind of sobering. Not interested, not this guy.

I'm really not thinking about "what stock, readily available design is good?" but rather, ----> If the collective genius of the SSS came up with a performance oriented, Pacific Coast singlehanded racing boat, what would it look like?

Travieso
01-07-2013, 03:29 PM
I'm really not thinking about "what stock, readily available design is good?" but rather, ----> If the collective genius of the SSS came up with a performance oriented, Pacific Coast singlehanded racing boat, what would it look like?

I've been thinking of one, but you'll need to like skinny boats.

BobJ
01-07-2013, 05:10 PM
WAFI is a Proto and so it's - shall we say - tweeky. But I think a fleet of Pogo 2's (which are series Mini's) within SSS would be great.

Solid boat, amazingly comfortable down below, fixed keel, no water ballast, etc. You can always reef - I do it a lot.

AlanH
01-07-2013, 05:20 PM
Well, got a drawing? :lol: Skinny is good, but you gotta be able to do a LongPac in it.

Personally, if I had no interest in ever , ever again sailing past the Farallones, Half Moon Bay or Drakes Bay, and money were no object, I'd love an Esse 8.5.

BobJ
01-07-2013, 07:01 PM
The Esse's a sexy boat but I wouldn't take it past Bonita.

Travieso
01-07-2013, 07:03 PM
Well, got a drawing? :lol: Skinny is good, but you gotta be able to do a LongPac in it.

Personally, if I had no interest in ever , ever again sailing past the Farallones, Half Moon Bay or Drakes Bay, and money were no object, I'd love an Esse 8.5.

Oh, if I ever build it, it will go to HI.

knotbum
08-06-2013, 10:59 PM
easy trailerable would be important to me. So that means 8'6" beam limit. I think being able to seat 4 in the cabin w/ basic cooking. Buoy racing with a crew of 3. about 3000 lb. (dry weight) limit. 27', 28', 29' ?

Wylieguy
08-07-2013, 01:40 PM
Take an old beater Santana 27 - dump the deck/cabin and remove the keel. Cut off the bow and transom and save the lead from the keel. Spread the hull a little, add a plumb bow and scoop transom with a cassette rudder at the end. Build a new cockpit/deck/house (with plenty of room for sleeping and eating). Cast a bullet from the old lead and put it at the bottom of a drop keel. Pop in a rebuilt saildrive. Punch a hole in the bow and stick in a retractable sprit and exchange the short Tuna mast for a taller recycled one. Build a low trailer and a tripod hoist system for getting the mast in and out with no outside help. Tow it behind your beat up Econoline. Then paint the boat yellow. Hey wait! Gordie's done that already.

brianb
08-07-2013, 02:36 PM
Great little ocean racer and already designed, tooled, debugged. No need to pay for R&D investment and associated cost of learning curve. Make deal with Benetau for a fleet order and have them shipped over. Put a unique feature, maybe a carbon mast, and call it the Calif Coastal Flyer.

BB

pogen
10-26-2013, 09:04 PM
Forum test test test test

Attached Image:

464

pogen
10-26-2013, 09:11 PM
Another test post redirect.

Test test test test test

http://www.owenclarkedesign.com/siteimages/large/TEMENOS_10.jpg

AlanH
11-02-2013, 09:58 PM
Forum test test test test

Attached Image:

464

The problem is that they're $125,000 used. And I have no idea how many / few of them are on this side of the Atlantic.

AlanH
05-19-2017, 11:13 AM
Resurrect...

Now that I've seen Natalie's Figaro II and stared in shock and amazement. Too much boat for moi.

I still go back to something about 28 feet long. If a Figaro I and an Express 27 had an illicit liason and spawned children with updated foils....

I also like the Quest 30 -> 32'd, with single rudder. And Bob, you'll be pleased to know that I really like the J-92 and it's updated cousins.

pogen
05-19-2017, 11:33 AM
https://68.media.tumblr.com/0b50be7ded114ad0ff603881e3298af6/tumblr_ofyduuUMas1vndjp7o1_1280.jpg

AlanH
05-19-2017, 12:54 PM
https://68.media.tumblr.com/0b50be7ded114ad0ff603881e3298af6/tumblr_ofyduuUMas1vndjp7o1_1280.jpg

That IS a pretty darned good candidate. I'd love to see one.

pogen
05-19-2017, 06:12 PM
That one is in Seattle. seascape27.tumblr.com is the website. I got a quote, base price for the 27 is around $125k I think, but if you look at the blog you will see the owner is doing a LOT of fit-out to get it ready for ocean sailing. Not sure if he intends to do Vic-Maui or what.

Tchoupitoulas
05-19-2017, 07:33 PM
R2ak?

Lanikai
05-21-2017, 12:08 AM
R2ak?

The post tags indeed settle that.
Great boat porn, as is that same guy's previous tumblr olson30.tumblr.com

pogen
05-21-2017, 08:41 AM
R2ak?

Oh yeah, I remember now -- that is why he is is installing a system to run a propeller off a recumbent bicycle frame.

K38Bob
05-21-2017, 08:44 AM
Hobie 33?

or
http://sailingcatamarans.com/index.php/designs-2/2-catamarans-under-25ft/160-sango

cheers
bob

mike cunningham
05-22-2017, 06:03 PM
Oh yeah, I remember now -- that is why he is is installing a system to run a propeller off a recumbent bicycle frame.

He seems to be a great fan of Harken roller furlers ha ha ha.

BobJ
05-22-2017, 06:21 PM
Ya think? I tried the top-down furler thing too (before Harken's version came out).

My reaction was remarkably similar. Harken's regular jib furlers are fine though.

AlanH
05-23-2017, 01:05 PM
Saphire 27.

Carrying on the Express 27's reverse sheer.

2426

2427

2428

Daggerboard instead of swing keel. For shorthanded offshore, I'd ask 'em for an internal rudder on bearings, rather than the external rudder. Also, I'm nolt sure about the fathead main and no backstay but I guess the Antrim 27 does that. I bet with some careful design thinking, they can move the shrounds in 2 inches to allow for an overlapping jib. They might have to add a partial bulkhead to do it.

AlanH
05-23-2017, 01:13 PM
Left Coast Dart. ( a little closer to home than the Saphire...) with an internal rudder? Hmm. I think it's a little bit small.

pogen
05-23-2017, 04:08 PM
The Dart is no more I think. Only a handful were made. Not really built as an ocean boat, NTTAWWT. Website seems offline.

Couple on SA

Donovan 27. As long as you don't get pooped. http://sailinganarchy.com/classifieds/show-ad/?id=2935

Hey a $75k used Seascape 27. http://sailinganarchy.com/classifieds/show-ad/?id=2915

AlanH
05-23-2017, 05:20 PM
The Dart molds got sold to Anacortes Yacht Rigging. But yeah, not really intended to be an offshore boat. That Donovan is very nice. Don't waste weight on paint! *blink*

But that's still not what I was after. I think that there will never be a dedicated North American shorthanded boat, like the Figaro's and Mini's are in. Europe. Pity.

BobJ
05-23-2017, 05:32 PM
No sponsorship money here, so we have to sail what we've got. But that's not an altogether bad thing.