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Jonathan Gutoff
01-02-2013, 06:58 PM
I see the NCORC recommendations have been posted and the SSS is going to use them for the HMB Race. I feel that a lot of the requirements will cause less boats to race. In the past the SSS HMB race has been a good starter race for those looking to get into ocean racing. I think the regulations also will keep out a lot of the one design boats like Moore 24's and Express 27's.
My main gripes are: Complicated lifelines for small boats when jacklines could be used. Toe rails 3/4 inches. Masthead antennae. SOLAS flares, PFD with 33 lbs buoyancy and crotch straps (Inflatables are the only ones to meet this without going to a very bulky type 1), An EPIRB plus DSC VHF and the SAS seminar. This race is a mid summer 21 mile with usually a less than 10 miles offshore reach. (We have found the hardest part was the beat out the gate) I appreciate what the NCORC council has done and can understand the requirements for other races such as the Farallones, Lightship and other spring races but not the SSS HMB. Please discuss.

BobJ
01-02-2013, 07:11 PM
Jonathan, look at the last couple of HMB entry lists. I did and the only boats that had issues were Jackie's Cal 20 (sold) and Matt's Wilderness 21 (just bought lifelines). I hear what you're saying though - maybe we'll keep away entries we would have had, or more likely SSS's previous ocean rules kept them out.

Since the NCORC MOR (fka MEL, then MER) are recommendations to race organizers, there is certainly room for discussion. For now I'd lean towards trying to work within them, perhaps with individual waivers as requested.

Sorry to be so chatty today - I'm home with a flu-like thing.

Jonathan Gutoff
01-02-2013, 07:24 PM
You have 24 days to get well before the Fiasco. That Flu thing has been going around. Does anybody know the weather history of the race? I may be biased but every one I've done has either been a drifter or a really nice white sail reach in 10-15 knots. (Then setting the chute for the last mile.) I talked to 2 people who didn't do the race last year because of the cost of SOLAS flares and PLB EPRIB for the one doublehanded ocean race of the season.

Philpott
01-02-2013, 08:15 PM
Jonathan, this is why it is so great to belong to the SSS: there are people from whom you can borrow stuff for races. I only sold my Cal 20 because I wanted to buy a bigger, fatter boat. Which I did. Otherwise I'd still be complaining about that lifeline requirement. And everything else, too, in part just to see what Bob has to say. The 2 past years I sailed to HMB I borrowed flares (a gun, which seemed very naughty and NRA), a legal PFD (I left that in the cabin and wore my dinghy lifevest which I know floats) and jacklines. Oh, and I borrowed a MOB, a spotlight and a horseshoe. Also battery operated nav lights just in case mine didn't work. I bought jacklines, which are too short for my boat now. You can borrow those.

Jonathan Gutoff
01-02-2013, 09:27 PM
Thanks Jackie, I already have the stuff and we did the race last year. I'm more concerned about new young racers and the old farts on Moores and such. (And Cal 20's.) Most of the list is fine because it's mainly the CG regs anyway.(and common sense) But can we require a handheld VHF with DSC/GPS or PLB but not both? They cost about $250 each. I would prefer the VHF as they should work for the short offshore distance during the race. (I'm assuming a 5 watt handheld will reach the CG all the way down to HMB so is a masthead 25 watt needed?) Do the boats need to talk to the RC? The RC is on the move to the finish so boats can't talk to them until the RC arrives at the HMBYC anyway. Jacklines are easy and simple to hook up to small boats and Lifelines are not. Are jacklines only that much more unsafe in the usual conditions of the race? SOLAS flares are great (and scary) but are they really needed when you are so close to the other boats while racing? Or are the 12g ones fine?

BobJ
01-02-2013, 09:41 PM
Jonathan wrote: "In the past the SSS HMB race has been a good starter race for those looking to get into ocean racing."

If that's true (and I believe it is) then we want new skippers to start bringing their boats up to offshore spec's, right? So they try HMB, borrow some gear to see what it looks like and maybe get familiar with it, and then move on to equip their boats to do OYRA/SHS, SH Farallones, etc. That's a big part of what SSS is about (read our home page) - not just to run races.

Jonathan Gutoff
01-02-2013, 10:18 PM
Jonathan wrote: "In the past the SSS HMB race has been a good starter race for those looking to get into ocean racing."

If that's true (and I believe it is) then we want new skippers to start bringing their boats up to offshore spec's, right? So they try HMB, borrow some gear to see what it looks like and maybe get familiar with it, and then move on to equip their boats to do OYRA/SHS, SH Farallones, etc. That's a big part of what SSS is about (read our home page) - not just to run races.

But maybe get their feet wet so to speak before making the big investment? The NCORC regs will be the same for the SSS Farallones and HMB. Are these races that similar? I just see a need for compromise. For now I'll keep quiet and see what others think...

Ergo
01-03-2013, 07:03 AM
I totally agree with Jonathan. It's a new SSS Board and many of the clubs and skippers that also participipte in SSS races also belong to other sailing organizations. In fact, a good percentage of our skippers also participate in other race series. As a past board memeber, I know I made a few mistakes during my first year "calling the shots". The issue, for me, making those decisions came down to to choosing the greater good over what only applied to the particulars that were best suited the SSS. While we are a significant and valuable part of the Bay Area we depend on other clubs for support of all of our activities. Most changes happen early in the season and The TBF is the first big race of those seasons. If anyone is particularly upset, sure, voice your concerns or better yet sign up to help on a race deck and experience the joy of running the TBF. By the way. both BobJ and Jonathan have taken more than their collective share of time in the Barrel.

Bill Merrick

Philpott
01-04-2013, 11:18 PM
What is the reasoning for both a life sling and a horseshoe?

tiger beetle
01-05-2013, 01:09 AM
What is the reasoning for both a life sling and a horseshoe?

One is for retrieving a person from the water and getting them back onboard, the other is for returning to the location where the person went into the water.

- rob/beetle

Jan Brewer
01-05-2013, 08:24 AM
Here, here, Bill,

Yep, get in the trenches with me for the 3BF and see how it all works. I agree with Bill whole-heartedly and have always believed I find value in something I have had to spend money for. Freebies are just that, freebies and most of the time they end up, somehow, not being freebies. Of course, borrowing is another discussion. Thanks, Jackie, that's a good point. If someone invests time and money n their equipment on a boat, and hence their life, doesn't s/he value it more? Won't he/she take better care of it? Just asking and love SSS. See you the 23rd! And, of course, I am looking for volunteers the 26th.

ronnie simpson
01-21-2013, 11:33 AM
must admit i'm scratching my head a bit after reading some of these new requirements.... that's my polite, discreet way of saying that some of these new regs are utter BS

let me get to "adding" more gear to my boat that just raced around the farallones, to hawaii, several times inter-island.... just so i can race to the farallones again. retarted.

sorry, i didn't add any tact to my coffee this morning.

BobJ
01-21-2013, 12:47 PM
You should have seen where they started out Ronnie - nearly the full ISAF Cat. 2 requirements. After no small amount of lobbying, NCORC ended up taking SSS's list for ocean races and adding a couple things. Trust me, it was going to be a much longer list.

Specifically, what items do you need that you didn't already have for the Hawaii race?

ronnie simpson
01-21-2013, 02:48 PM
My masthead antenna is less than 15 inches tall (Shakespeare Racing one). Besides, my stern-pulpit mounted antenna works awesome. And it provides redundancy for losing a rig. When I did DH Farallones and OYRA light bucket last year, this was all I had and was legal. Now it's not. Just left scratching my head a bit as to why.

I un-installed my instrument package to pay for shipping home, but now i'll need t re-add a thru-hull, depth sounder, wiring, display. Really left scratching my head on not allowing lead lines like in the past.

My VHF radio is not DSC capable, so i'll need a new VHF radio. And what is an MMSI number? Don't we already have required PLB's? This is redundant, no? Not a bad thing, but what is this addressing that a PLB doesn't?

Having bought all the SOLAS flares just before SHTP, i know that is an investment. For boats that don't have those, is a normal USCG-approved set from West Marine for $40 not really adequate in the Gulf of the Farallones?

BobJ
01-21-2013, 03:36 PM
For some reason YRA still has the old Minimum Equipment List on their website. Here's the new one we're talking about:

http://www.norcalorc.org/node/32

Ronnie, check that antenna. I recently helped install one and if it's the Shakespeare coiled/spiral one, its 15" long.

You can't use a lead line while racing around the Farallones. They're fine for anchoring in shallow water but not much else. That option was always a bit of a joke.

You don't have to have a DSC-capable radio until next year but if you understand DSC and the new Rescue-21 system, you'd understand why YRA is moving in that direction. BTW, I'm selling my ICOM 402 w/DSC (25W) if you or anyone else wants to get one cheap. Even has the RAM mic. I never entered my MMSI so it's good to go.

There was a trade-off on the flares. Fewer flares are required but they have to be good ones. If you've ever seen SOLAS flares and non-SOLAS flares fired off side-by-side (I have), you wouldn't bother with non-SOLAS flares.

Critter
01-21-2013, 03:47 PM
Hi Ronnie ...

Sorry if you missed the discussions on Pressure Drop and Sailing Anarchy. As you might expect, they sometimes got ... vivid ... and they had some influence on the final product.

Are you sure about your antenna length? That 15" minimum was written specifically to allow a common Shakespeare racing antenna. 5216 is the model number I see.

Nobody wants to add a thruhull, but I hear most depthsounders can be made to work without one, if you experiment with location inside the hull. Have you ever used a leadline? While racing? I'm skeptical that anyone without a lot of experience tossing it could get a reliable reading while moving. And we want something that racers will actually use.

DSC was put off for a year so that we're not hit with all the new expenses at once. With DSC, the SOS gets out immediately, as opposed to waiting til a satellite passes over. And your friends on nearby boats get the message, not just the Coast Guard. MMSI is a registration number that you program into the unit. Easy and free.

Max

Philpott
01-21-2013, 04:54 PM
Matt Beal and Tony Bourque both assure me that my new Humminbird depth finder/fish finder will work fine. It promises depth to 600 feet. Cost $113 @ Defender and the sensor gets fiberglassed to the inside of my hull. I'll let you know.

Jonathan Gutoff
01-21-2013, 04:56 PM
I'm still wondering why the NCORC list for the SSS HMB Race. The Farallones Race, OK. Two DSC radios plus EPIRB? Thats $750.(Not counting a masthead install) SOLAS flares for a short race with other boats around you? We don't have to follow the list and NCORC have even said that themselves. Why can't the different races be taken individually? The HMB is part of a race series that should be accessible to more boats with the one throwout for boats not set up for the Farallones. Should we have 2 throw-outs for the boats that can't afford to comply for the HMB?

BobJ
01-21-2013, 05:33 PM
SSS's HMB race isn't until mid-August and boats will need to get ready for the SH Farallones first. Some will also be gearing up (literally) for OYRA, where I'm told waivers will be few and far between. After the 3BF I'm sure the board will be looking at this.

And again, DSC radios aren't until next year.

Jonathan Gutoff
01-21-2013, 06:00 PM
I guess I'm not really getting the answer I'm looking for so my question must be wrong. Does the board believe the HMB is in the same category of ocean race (in terms of risk factor) as the Farallones? What if the only ocean race you plan to do is the HMB? I'd rank the races progressively. HMB basic CG requirements, Farallones NCORC, Longpac and Transpac as is. (or what the Race Chairs deem appropriate)

Wylieguy
01-21-2013, 06:28 PM
I guess I'm not really getting the answer I'm looking for so my question must be wrong. Does the board believe the HMB is in the same category of ocean race (in terms of risk factor) as the Farallones? What if the only ocean race you plan to do is the HMB? I'd rank the races progressively. HMB basic CG requirements, Farallones NCORC, Longpac and Transpac as is. (or what the Race Chairs deem appropriate)

Jonathan, Unless you take an abrupt "Left Turn" at Seal Rocks, you will sail pretty close to where "Daisy's" hull lies (it's fiberglass). If you continue on to HMB you'll sail over the locations where several boats have been lost on the "South Bar" over the years. I think a jaunt down to HMB is in the same category as any other Gulf of the Farallones Race. (disclaimer: I'm not on the SSS Board and am no longer on the YRA Board).

I know yacht club cruises go down to HMB with the minimum CG requirements with boats and skippers much less experienced; I think it's just a matter of time. I also know a couple was lost two years ago near Seal Rocks just "cruising." Their Ranger 33 sat in KKMI's Sausalito yard for months afterward as a grim reminder until it was cut up and hauled it away. Over the years several boats have grounded in Ocean Beach for various reasons, sometimes resulting in loss of life.

Pat Broderick

BobJ
01-21-2013, 06:36 PM
The other board members can certainly speak for themselves but as incoming race chair, if you made me answer today I would tell you the new NorCalORC requirements are minimum equipment requirements for ocean races out of San Francisco Bay.

Does this board member "believe the HMB race is in the same category of ocean race (in terms of risk factor) as the Farallones?" Not most years. However the 2011 HMB race was a fairly heavy air upwind race until shortly before the Colorado Reef buoy, while the 2012 SH Farallones Race was mostly a drifter.

The board will discuss it when we reconvene after the 3BF.

scottc
01-30-2013, 11:27 AM
One of my concerns is about the requirement for a 33lb floatation PFD. I know alot of people like the inflatables but I prefer to not trust them or have them go off on the boat when they get caught on something. The other thing is if in the water if you were to bounce off something, like a rock they can pop and then you have nothing. What are others thoughts on this part?
Scott

BobJ
01-30-2013, 11:50 AM
I tend to agree with you Scott. The guy who fell overboard Saturday said he would have had trouble had he been wearing an inflatable. I can't be 100% sure my Mustang vest will inflate if I need it. I assume it will, but I don't KNOW. Plus you get some padding and insulation from a regular vest.

The challenge is where to draw the line on the vest type PFD's. The guy Saturday fell in the water because he got hit by the boom. Had it knocked him out, having a PFD that would turn him upright might have been critical, but the Type III vests we often wear won't do that. The waist-belt PFD's are clearly insufficient.

Perhaps read the Low Speed Chase report again (which is what's driving this) - inadequate PFD's were a factor in at least a couple of those fatalities.

tiger beetle
01-30-2013, 01:30 PM
USCG Type 1 life jackets will also meet the NCORC rule, and I own several of the Stearns Merchant Mate life vests, and while bulky, they are comfortable to wear. I have them specifically for heading for the life raft, should that prove necessary. They are also warm and the padding is good for climbing the mast.

http://www.stearnsflotation.com/Deluxe-Merchant-Matetrade-II-Life-Vest-P1573C8.aspx

There's no absolute requirement that you have an inflatable built into NCORC. There is a recognition that the typical Type II lifejacket is insufficient to keep you going in offshore waves.

- rob/beetle

Wylieguy
01-30-2013, 03:06 PM
We sailed by Rich soon after he was in the water. We offered our horseshoe, but he waved us off and said "Ay Caliente" was coming back for him. Here's what we observed. He was wearing a dinghy-type life vest that was up around his neck. After we passed by and looked back all we could see was the vest sticking up in the choppy water. He was treading water and waving boats off that were approaching him. He was floating about neck-deep in choppy water created by the many boats in the area and getting splashed in the face. He was only in the water for a few minutes before "Ay Caliente" got back to him (they should bet the USSA Hansen Lifesaving Award for what they did!)
I took the Safety at Sea Seminar at the Maritime Academy as preparation for the 2010 PacCup. I observed two demonstrations that stick solidly with me to this day. 1) A 12 gauge meteor flare in 20 knots of wind half a mile away might as well be pissing on a forest fire. 2) During the PFD demonstration in the Academy's indoor pool, volunteers in dinghy-type vests were having difficulty keeping their chins out of the water after just a few minutes. And they were fighting vests up around their necks. Those in high-floatation inflatables with thigh straps had no problems, especially a "large" bodied mad in a Spinlock vest with his hood pulled over his face.
We were told, and I believe it, that many overboard drownings occur when a person in a life jacket tires and can't keep his/her face out of the water or away from the wind - which causes the wave action to splash into the face. I know an inflated vest is awkward, but the point, especially at sea, isn't to swim; it's to keep alive long enough for rescue. That's why, as I've said before, I hook the PLB and submersible VHF onto me - so I can call for that rescue and hope it gets to me in time.
I came home from Vallejo,and that day ordered a Spinlock vest from Defender Industries. Thigh straps (somewhat awkward, but will keep the vest in its proper relationship to my body). Hood to pull over my head (with clear plastic face) to keep waves from splashing into my face. EU floatation approval (I know it's not USCG "approved" - I carry USCG Type 1 bulky vests to meet the requirement) Automatic inflation (plus pull cord and oral inflation tube) Good shot at turning my unconscious body face up. Very expensive!

Lanikai
01-31-2013, 01:41 AM
Still buzzing from the TBF (so far it looks like I wasn't dead last!) and looking forward to trying an SSS ocean event (thinking particularly of HMB for my first), I started reviewing the NCORC requirements to determine what my very average, very old Santana 22 would need to be compliant. The only head start I have is a pulpit and stanchions.
For the bored & curious, my virtual-back-of-napkin ballpark numbers are here:
google doc spreadsheet of NCORC projects specific to Lanikai (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnLP-fl8BWQPdGtNWGJIOGlCT3NlUWJUb2dZdjFpZ1E#gid=1)

To help decide whether I should invest $1800 in boat projects and possibly the same amount in safety gear for this little boat with a resale value of half that amount, or postpone my ocean racing career while I put that money toward a better prepared boat, I have a couple questions:

What is an "integral, essentially watertight unit" (G)? I suspect most participating boats have cowl vents, lazarette vents, hatchboard vents, chain pipes, etc. which can allow some considerable green water ingress in foul conditions. Would a couple of unsealed cowl vents and a leaky companionway be considered unacceptable for something like a fair weather HMB race?

For a singlehander, I wonder about the lifesling and MOB requirements. Kinda hard to toss a MOB pole to myself and work the lifesling from the water, no? Or is the idea that I should be equipped to assist a nearby sailor in distress (in which case, fair enough)?

Finally, for the older salts familiar with the Santana 22 (I'm looking at you, Mr. Broderick!), my biggest hurdle project-wise would be reconstructing the cockpit drain assemblies to incorporate proper seacocks where none currently exist. It's maybe a straight foot from the underside of the cockpit to the hull, and the integral glass nipples at both ends are still rock solid after 45 years. Would I still need to proceed with this alteration?

I can abide all the requirements in spirit and most of them in specifics. Certainly my boat, or any boat, would do well to have many of these safety measures in place even for simple leisure sailing on the bay. Formulating a specific plan to get from my present state of unseaworthiness to a future HMB or Farallones race is, while financially sobering, helpful in deciding realistically if and when I will be out there chasing the rest of you.

Wylieguy
01-31-2013, 01:02 PM
Laniki, I wrote an extensive reply to your post, but the damned SSS system kicked me off and it was lost. I hate this system. I don't have time to go back and reconstruct it right now, but I'll get back later. In the meantime, let's plan to sit down at/after the SSS Awards Meeting and talk about what you've asked/said. Thanks, Pat

BobJ
01-31-2013, 01:25 PM
Pat, for the life of me I don't understand why this board "times out" logged-on members. Perhaps Matt can tweak those settings (probably not) but in the meantime, here's the trick I use. If I've gotten long-winded typing a reply, before I click to post it, I drag across the whole thing with the mouse, then right-click and click "Copy". Then I try to post it. If it says I have to Log In again, I cuss a bit and do it, then hit Reply to Thread again, right click in the window and click "Paste".

In other words, copy your reply to the "Clipboard" before you lose the whole thing when trying to post it.

Lanikai
01-31-2013, 02:16 PM
Thanks, Pat, I'll look for you at the awards meeting.
I kept getting timed out as I wrote my post as well, but internalized BobJ's trick eons ago after watching too many of my treatises evaporate into the ether (probably for the better in most cases). If I start getting wordy, I usually just move to a text editor until I'm ready to post. But this forum does seem unusually quick on the timeouts.

Adam

Dazzler
01-31-2013, 06:51 PM
NCORC MOR Item #11 (Safety Gear): Waterproof handheld VHF radio. After 1/1/2014, this radio shall have DSC/GPS capability.

With reference to the above requirement, I want to bring everyone’s’ attention the Nautilus Lifeline www.nautiluslifeline.com. I’ve recently purchased one of these fully waterproof DSC/GPS VHF radios. I carried it during the 3BF. There’s been lots of discussion about carrying a PLB verses a VHF. For near coastal racing (Farallones and HMB) I think a DSC/GPS VHF radio is a better bet; need I explain? Right now I only know of three other manufacturers of DSC/GPS VHF: Icom, Standard and Simrad. The Lifeline isn’t as small as I’d of liked, but it’s smaller than most handheld VHF’s, very waterproof and designed primarily as a piece of safety gear.

Tom

kotyara
01-31-2013, 07:14 PM
It looks nifty, but then I just got an ICOM M92D for the same $300, which seems to be a little more handy as an actual radio. Used it in the cockpit during TBF and very happy with it. There's an "distress" button on the back. Batteries lasted about 1.5 days of intermittent use, sound quality was very good, and you can buy an adapter to use AA cells for power. There's also Standard Horizon hx851 that goes for $200 online, seems to have good reviews as well.

BTW, on the subject of online deals, a West Marine employee told me that they will not be matching online prices any more starting from March.

Dazzler
01-31-2013, 07:53 PM
I've been very happy with the ICOM radios I've owned. I have a 25W DSC model interfaced to my GPS and a non-DSC Icom M88 and would have little hesitation in buying the M92D. The Nautilus Lifeline is not intended to serve as your primary or secondary VHF; it's a piece of personal emergency communication gear.

The problem with handheld VHF's is how to comfortably carry them on you. The antenna is the problem. And, if you don't have it on you it won't do you much good if you're in the water. I think about the J-90 guy, Dave Wilhite, that had the incredible cool to dive under his boat for his VHF when the keel fell off. It saved their lives. Better to have the radio on you and know that the battery is fresh.

Tom

kotyara
01-31-2013, 08:24 PM
Good point. Mine was attached to the cockpit the whole race, so it would've been useless as a rescue tool (duh!). A Spinlock vest might help with that, apparently it has a pocket specifically for a VHF. Can any Spinlock owners comment on that?

Lanikai
02-01-2013, 11:29 AM
All good advice, thank you, Richard. In 5 years...can't imagine. I started my sailing life years ago as a cruiser with big ambitions and that probably won't have changed much by then. But until I have the bank, and time, to cast off in a well-found cruiser, I figure I'll "get my feet wet", to quote Jonathan, in the bay area racing scene and see where it goes. The little tuna seemed like the simplest way to get started without draining too much from the future cruising kitty. I'm content to knock around the bay as is, but it seems that if I want to participate in organized events beyond the gate I have some more thinking to do.

Oh, and the boat projects...been there, done that, got the T-shirts and credit card statements! Restoration of a previous pocket cruiser introduced me to the time- and money-suck that all boats are. Hence my endless deliberating about plans for this boat.
At the very least, this NCORC MER stuff has encouraged me to put together a solid kit of personal gear I can use regardless of the boat I'm on.

Wylieguy
02-02-2013, 12:17 AM
Adam, Damn! I lost the first few sentences of another reply. I'm working from my laptop and don't have your spreadsheet at hand, so if I miss some of the items on that document I'll get back with another email. I think your $$$ totals are way high and that you can prepare your Tuna for ocean racing for a lot less.
1) Cockpit scuppers. The NCRC Requirements specifically exempts scuppers from needing seacocks. I did carry wooden plugs for them in the unlikely case the hoses connecting them to the thru-hulls somehow broke. Any other thru-hulls on your boat? No need to haul nor buy nor glass.
2) Masthead antenna. No yard necessary. Call upon two or three other Tuna owners to help you get the mast down in the berth. We all do it that way. The antenna, including R8 cable and PL59 plug should be $100 or maybe a little more. I wouldn't even put a connector for the thru hull, just run the cable in and caulk. Keep for extra cable so if you need to remove the mast you can cut off the connector and then put a new one on ($10 or so).
3) Depth Sounder. The hull is solid glass. Buy a cheap Humminbird (eBay?) and glue the transducer inside the hull up front. Worked for me - but you need to provide 12 volts, so some simple wiring is necessary.
4) VHF/DSC Radio. WM has one for about $150 (use one of their almost daily discount coupons to save another $15 or maybe $20)
5. Hull integrity. The factory main hatch should work with no modification. Bore a hole in a corner of the hatch boards, run a piece of line thru and tie the bitter end off to something solid inside the cabin. Yes, plan to stuff a sponge in the ventilators. The idea is for the boat to survive a 360, not to float upside down forever. I used bungie cord to keep the cockpit lockers closed tightly. I also duck taped them shut when sailing ocean races. You can bore a hole thru a corner of the main hatch and thru the cabin top, then use a clevis pip to keep the hatch closed.
6. Interior hatch covers/anchor + chain and rode. First, you are only required to have 150', not 200' of anchor line. Bore a hole on two sides of each hatch cover, bore another hole next to it in the see top and use light line to tie them in. Put your anchor and rode under and you have it secured. Battery too (I used a lawnmower battery). But the battery does need to be strapped down.
7. 2 Buckets w/lanyards. Two empty COSTCO detergent containers with the handles removed. Bore two holes, use a length of old line to form a new handle and tie another piece of line onto that handle for a lanyard. Worked for me for the PacCup and LongPac.
8. EPIRB. Join BOATUS and rent one from them. Less than $100 and you don't have to worry about replacing an expensive battery. Or borrow one - BUT re-register it with NOAA. You'll need the owner's password, and it's a very simple online process. Then reverse the registration when you give the unit back.
Enough for now. But I don't think you have to haul your boat, nor have a yard pull your mast. The VHF radio/Antenna should be less than $300.
Pat - Former Tuna owner and still a Tuna lover.

BobJ
02-02-2013, 01:01 AM
Pat - Former Tuna owner and still a Tuna lover.
This one looks good and it's even blue! (http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2008/Santana-Sloop-2557182/CA/United-States)

Lanikai
02-02-2013, 08:30 AM
I try to use the 2x4 rule (twice the money, quadruple the time), but then I also tend to get carried away with projects--what the boat wants, the boat gets! But you're right, there are simpler solutions and I'll be implementing those you describe.
Lanikai is due for a bottom paint haul and removal of old head thru hulls, but altering scupper drains might have turned a weekend into a week. Glad to know that isn't necessary. The DIY mast stepping gives me an excuse to meet some other sailors, too, and save myself $230 in Svendsen's fees. Radio pays for itself, when I look at that way. Basically free! (I've gotten very good at rationalizing boat expenditures).
Despite being one of the older, neglected tunas, I've put some effort into the boat and know it's close to being capable of ocean work, but also never know what to make of these rules & regs. Those were just the reassurances I needed to hear. Thanks, Pat!
-Adam

Philpott
02-02-2013, 03:16 PM
Re these newly required VHF/DSC/GPS radios (and yes, I understand that they're not required until 2016); Do alternative GPS units not rate a waiver? Since the radio is good only for approximately 200 miles out, would not a PLB rate a waiver? I don't understand. I have a brand new standard horizon VHF/DSC. I was feeling so virtuous.

JohnS
02-02-2013, 06:32 PM
My understanding of the logic behind the gps enabled dsc hand held vhf is that the vhf has a more rapid response time than would a epirb or plb. And with the gps the dsc sends the cg your location on first contact. Personally I think it's a good idea although it leaves me needing to procure a new hand held vhf in the next couple of years.

Also, I doubt that a hand held vhf would ever make a 200 mile contact. A mast head antenna and a fixed mount radio would likely be out of range at that distance, too. Although I have worked 2 meter ham contacts from a greater distance using a 5 watt HT. But that involved a repeater on Mt. Diablo.

Philpott
02-02-2013, 07:01 PM
Now I"m a bit more confused. My radio, though not DSC/VHF/GPS, but only DSC/VHF, is transmitted via the masthead antenna. Do you suggest that a fixed mount radio with a mast head antenna, as mine is, is more useful than an epirb or plb in an emergency? If the fixed mount radio does not reach 200 nm, then how does the GPS addition to the equation make it additionally safe? In other words, why the additional requirement? Here is where I ask: "what would Pat Broderick say?" He's probably sailing Nancy in the Corinthian midwins or somewhere cold and damp today.

Can someone clarify this, please? For those of us with DSC/VHF fixed mount radios in our boats, can we connect our handheld garmin gps units to them and meet this requirement? According to this site http://www.usps.org/localusps/redwood/education/NMEA/dsc.htm , it can be done in this way, thus meeting this requirement.

Wylieguy
02-02-2013, 07:35 PM
Jackie & Co. There are two types of radios used by us sailors: VHF and HF (SSB). A VHF radio signal is 2 meter frequency, and is "line of sight" for all intents and purposes and is limited by the FCC to 25 watts. A HF radio (SSB) is legal to 150 watts. The HF signal bounces off layers of the atmosphere back down to earth; different HF frequencies bounce off different layers and therefore "transmit" further or shorter distances. Whether it daytime or nighttime also figures in, since various layers of the atmosphere change during the daywhen. It has to do with direct sunshine on the earth's atmophere. It's possible for a HF signal to transmit thousands of miles. NO VHF radio can transmit anything like 200 miles unless atmospheric conditions are very special, something called "ducting" which is so unusual it should not be part of this conversation.
Since we use "line of sight" VHF, the height of both transmitting and receiving antennas is important for distance. The CG has antennas on Mt. Tam and other high peaks, so they can transmit and hear over much greater distances than we can when transmitting boat to boat. The practical range of a 25 watt VHF radio is between 3 and 20+/- miles.. Two handhelds in cockpits have a much shorter range (5 miles???) than two masthead antennas, which can be 20 miles or more, depending on how high each mast is. The quality of the masthead signal also depends on the quality of the cable and connections which carry the transmission from the radio to the antenna. There is always loss of power, but bad cable and/or connections can really degrade the transmission. The marine atmosphere is a radio signal's worst enemy and bad connections result in bad transmissions.
Since the CG antennas are located much higher up, we can often hear CG Station Monterey, which has a high antenna on some mountain down there. By the way, the CG is also limited to 25 watts of broadcast power on the VHF bands. If you're in the water with a handheld VHF radio within sight of the top of Mt. Tam the CG should be able to hear you, but there are several "IFs." 1) IF your battery is charged up; VHF handhelds transmit at a max of 5 or 6 watts and that power diminishes sharply as the battery runs down. 2) IF the radio is waterproof and you've closed the battery compartment correcty. 3) IF you are holding it so the antenna is upright and out of the water.
Help? Pat

Philpott
02-02-2013, 08:00 PM
Thanks, Pat. I'm just trying to figure out how to avoid buying a new radio.

BobJ
02-02-2013, 08:59 PM
Can someone clarify this, please? For those of us with DSC/VHF fixed mount radios in our boats, can we connect our handheld garmin gps units to them and meet this requirement?

Yes. My fancy-schmancy new Std-Horizon "Matrix AIS+ GX2150" doesn't have GPS in it, but I ran one of the data-out wires from my Garmin GPS to it and it's slickerin' cat slobber.

kotyara
02-03-2013, 01:00 AM
I guess one advantage DSC has over PLB/EPIRB is that anyone in range with a DSC radio will hear the distress signal, not just CG. Not sure how useful that would be for SHTP, but for shorter races might be significant.

Wylieguy
02-03-2013, 09:04 AM
For the PacCup I bought a Standard-Horizon AIS radio and also hooked it up to my Garmin GPS. Worked like a charm, although we only heard 2 ships and saw only 1 of them. It was comforting, even though someone was always in the cockpit steering. Of course we thankfully didn't need to see if the DSC worked! But knowing it was there and we were being shadowed by another boat often 15 - 20 nm away was comforting.
I think the NCORC's VHF/DSC/GPS requirement is for local ocean coastal races, not those going to Hawaii. My guess is that anyone planning on Hawaii will be sailing lots of local ocean coastal races in prep for the big one. Except for the SSS LongPac, all of these races should be within CG range.

Wylieguy
02-03-2013, 09:06 AM
Thanks, Pat. I'm just trying to figure out how to avoid buying a new radio.

Quick answer: Yes. You should be able to connect a GPS signal to your VHF/DSC radio. Check the user's manual for the radio. Pat

JohnS
02-03-2013, 12:28 PM
Pat,

As others have already mentioned you should be able to connect a hand held gps to your fixed mount dsc capable vhf and meet the requirements for the house radio. For the hand held vhf you are likely in the same situation as I am: need to spend $$ before January next year (provided the SSS adheres to the NCORC recs). What model of fixed mount vhf is on your boat?

My comment about the benefits of the gps enabled dsc radio call are more related to the rapid transmission of location. It can take a bit of time for an epirb or plb to get that information back to SAR, especially for the older, non-gps enabled beacons. (I believe the numbers are something on the order of as much as an hour or more for non-gps epirb's which rely on doppler shift measurements to determine a location. The gps enabled beacons should be able to send a location in minutes and perhaps on first transmit with those beacons that connect to an external gps to have a location pre-loaded.) The other advantages I can see in the vhf dsc call are that it goes to every dsc enabled radio in range (this has already been mentioned) and you are likely to be in communication with CG very quickly. We all know that the hand held vhf more than likely saved two lives when Heat Wave lost her keel. If the radio they had retrieved from the boat and used to call the CG had been dsc and gps enabled, their location would have been sent along with the distress call, which would have been a great aid to the SAR efforts. As it was the CG's ability to tell the Heat Wave crew to look for the pilot boat and the ability of Heat Wave to guide the pilot boat to their location. I tend to think of radios and beacons as complimentary devices and if I were to find myself in a situation like Heat Wave I am sure I would activate the beacon and get on the radio, look for my voo-doo doll and whatever else was at hand to help. So much for my 2 cents on the matter.

Philpott
02-03-2013, 05:02 PM
Not to beat a dead horse, but this is the recommendation: "11. Waterproof handheld VHF radio. After 1/1/2014, this radio shall have DSC/GPS capability" All previous discussion has focused on having gps capability in the boat's fixed radio, not the handheld radio. With the understanding that these are RECOMMENDATIONS, not requirements, and that the SSS board has not yet met to discuss which of them to REQUIRE for our own races, if a fixed mount radio has DSC/VHF/GPS cabability, would a handheld with the same characteristics not be redundant (don't mean to throw you under the bus, Jonathan, one thing at a time)? I see that more than a thousand people have read these posts, so I'll bet I'm not the only enquiring mind who wants to know.

Jonathan Gutoff
02-03-2013, 09:43 PM
Not to beat a dead horse, but this is the recommendation: "11. Waterproof handheld VHF radio. After 1/1/2014, this radio shall have DSC/GPS capability" All previous discussion has focused on having gps capability in the boat's fixed radio, not the handheld radio. With the understanding that these are RECOMMENDATIONS, not requirements, and that the SSS board has not yet met to discuss which of them to REQUIRE for our own races, if a fixed mount radio has DSC/VHF/GPS cabability, would a handheld with the same characteristics not be redundant (don't mean to throw you under the bus, Jonathan, one thing at a time)? I see that more than a thousand people have read these posts, so I'll bet I'm not the only enquiring mind who wants to know.

I'm just saying that 2 DSC VHF radios and a PLB sounds redundant for the HMB race. I'd prefer a GPS/DSC handheld over the others. I've been getting conflicting answers to the question if a GPS/DSC VHF gets a faster response time than a PLB/GPS. If the CG says a PLB is better then that should be the choice.

Wylieguy
02-03-2013, 10:12 PM
Pat,

As others have already mentioned you should be able to connect a hand held gps to your fixed mount dsc capable vhf and meet the requirements for the house radio. For the hand held vhf you are likely in the same situation as I am: need to spend $$ before January next year (provided the SSS adheres to the NCORC recs). What model of fixed mount vhf is on your boat?

My comment about the benefits of the gps enabled dsc radio call are more related to the rapid transmission of location. It can take a bit of time for an epirb or plb to get that information back to SAR, especially for the older, non-gps enabled beacons. (I believe the numbers are something on the order of as much as an hour or more for non-gps epirb's which rely on doppler shift measurements to determine a location. The gps enabled beacons should be able to send a location in minutes and perhaps on first transmit with those beacons that connect to an external gps to have a location pre-loaded.) The other advantages I can see in the vhf dsc call are that it goes to every dsc enabled radio in range (this has already been mentioned) and you are likely to be in communication with CG very quickly. We all know that the hand held vhf more than likely saved two lives when Heat Wave lost her keel. If the radio they had retrieved from the boat and used to call the CG had been dsc and gps enabled, their location would have been sent along with the distress call, which would have been a great aid to the SAR efforts. As it was the CG's ability to tell the Heat Wave crew to look for the pilot boat and the ability of Heat Wave to guide the pilot boat to their location. I tend to think of radios and beacons as complimentary devices and if I were to find myself in a situation like Heat Wave I am sure I would activate the beacon and get on the radio, look for my voo-doo doll and whatever else was at hand to help. So much for my 2 cents on the matter.

John, My SH is a GX2100 and was "new" in 2010 when I purchased it for the LongPac. It cost about $400. It's old technology now, and I'm not even sure the model # is still offered. As I've written, I have my Gamin 478 (also ancient technology) hooked up to it. I can't take it with me when I exit the boat! And it probably wouldn't work upside down in the water if my keel fell of and by some miracle the hull stayed afloat with me hanging onto the rudder, ala Heat Wave style.
Here's an online source: <standardhorizon.factoryoutletstore.com> that seems to have good prices on marine radios, but you can also check with <defender.com>. I know the Factory Outlet Store has downloads of the owners manuals so you can read the details. I think they also sell the other brands, so you might be able to do some feature/cost comparisons.
My understanding about CG Permits for 2013 is that an EPIRB/PLB is the communication requirement of choice. As I've repeated over and over (tired of hearing?) I sail out there with my PLB attached to my Spinlock PFD and my WM HT (HAM lingo!) on a strap around my neck. I want my HT attached to me so it won't be swept out of my hand as it was on Heat Wave. I'm seriously thinking of asking for an ICOM M92D DSC/Handheld VHF Radio (WM $300) for my birthday on March 28 (hint, hint!) so I can register it and take it with me on the BAMA Farallones on March 30. See you in 2 weeks at the Awards.

BobJ
02-03-2013, 10:24 PM
I'm not on the NorCalORC safety/equipment committee but I recall Andy posting that they are waiting on the CG to respond about this issue. Specifically, if boats have DSC-enabled radios will the CG back off of its requirement for a 406 device (EPIRB or PLB)?

I'm liking the DSC handheld for a MOB situation (vs. a PLB). The MOB can push the emergency call button and all the boats around (and the CG via Rescue21) will get that call. If the handheld is also GPS-enabled, the DSC call will include the MOB's position. If a nearby boat's VHF is wired to its chartplotter the MOB's position will show on that, and this is all instantaneous vs. waiting for the ERIRB or PLB signal (which may not initially include a position) to work its way back to the CG and then out to the fleet via voice transmission.

I was thinking about this today in fact, as I was jumping around on the boat with no tether up in SP Bay. I'm getting a DSC/GPS enabled handheld regardless of what the rules require. My old handheld is 12 years old anyway, and still on its original rechargable bettery.

Max, has anyone said if they've heard from the CG yet?

Dazzler
02-03-2013, 10:29 PM
NCORC MOR Item #11 (Safety Gear): Waterproof handheld VHF radio. After 1/1/2014, this radio shall have DSC/GPS capability.

Jackie,

The situation being address is that you are in the water, separated from your boat, or your keel has come off, or you've lost your mast and ability to transmit. The recommendation and potential requirement is clearly based on lessons learned from a number of Gulf of the Farallones incidents involving: LOW SPEED CHASE, DAISY, HEAT WAVE and others. All of these incidents involved people in the water. Obviously, this is only applicable to near shore racing with other boats around. If you fall overboard on the SHTP it very unlikely anyone can find you in time.

The clear advantage of a handheld DSC/GPS VHF, if you have it on your person, is:
1. The capability to very quickly alert all other DSC equipped vessels AND the CG to your situation and position.
2. Two-way communication with potential rescuers.

The alternative of a PLB does not alert other vessels; it may not get a response from the CG for as much as a hour or longer while they wait for a fix and verify that it's not a false alarm; AND it's one-way communication. I have been on the bridge of a large vessel when a DSC/VHF emergency was activated. It was quite impressive: alarms go off and the signal position was immediately shown on the vessels chart plotter.

Jackie, I'm not sure from your earlier post that you know that your fixed mount DSC/VHF must either have an internal GPS or be interfaced with a GPS to be DSC functional. There are statistics that some vast majority of DSC/VHF radios are not properly installed.

Tom

BobJ
02-03-2013, 10:34 PM
Tom, you said it more clearly than I did - thanks.

My old Icom 402 (fixed mount VHF) had DSC capability and I even had an MMSI, but I never put it in the radio. Also, I never wired the GPS to it. It sounds like I was in good company.

Critter
02-04-2013, 12:01 PM
Max, has anyone said if they've heard from the CG yet?
Not that I'm aware of.

To clarify a point that someone brought up a few posts back, the NCORC recommendations are not intended to apply to any races farther than the Farallones or Monterey. That leaves out Coastal Cup, LongPac and the Hawaii races.