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Thread: STIX and tinkering with PHRF

  1. #11
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    pogen is offline Sailing canoe "Kūʻaupaʻa"
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimQuanci View Post
    PacCup positive stability requirement is 105 degrees... not as tough as LA Transpac. Though some common race boats still don't meet the 105 degree requirement... like a Santana 35 (wide boat with a relatively short modest weight keel). Took a Hobie to Hawaii one year... yes due to being so narrow and so light, they are initially very tippy (light shallow keel), but when heeled way over, they still prefer to float upright (narrow hull).
    What's this I hear about some new measurement rating being required for Pac Cup? I looked on the Pac Cup website but could not find it -- just a mention in the NOR about a rating rule "to be published in an appendix at a later date" or some such.

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    Way too many cooks in the kitchen over at PacCup. They'll end up with a cruising rally and we'll have to add a DH division to our race. (Did I really say that?)

    First the DW ratings (new PCR) which took some of our boats right out of it. Then the cruising division, then weighing all the boats (yes!) and now a bogus stability rating that eliminates boats like the venerable Hawaii sled, the Olson 30.

  3. #13
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    How much (for the lack of a better term) "idiot proofing" does it take to diminish the event. The races already require radios up the ying yang, life rafts, and other survival equipment. How many people just don't compete because of the extensive overhead already required? If it's insurance companies then lets see if they will compete on requirements. If it's liability, then form a new corporate organization for each race and let the scavengers sue ghosts. If somewhere in the middle is required then I would favor more competency evaluation and less idiot proofing. Less problems with more competency anyway because idiot proofing is just an illusion.

  4. #14
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    pogen is offline Sailing canoe "Kūʻaupaʻa"
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    Weighing all the boats?? WTF?

    I can see getting everyone to get a 'real' cert like an ORR, but to do things in a half-assed manner is worse than nothing at all.

    The DW rating was a complete flop, and I'm afraid that some of the people behind it are now tinkering with Pac Cup. One in particular is too clever by half, or perhaps too clever for our own good.


    Though if you used the actual weight of my boat (probably 1500 lbs more than the PHRF cert says it is) and the PHRF LWL (quite a bit shorter than it really is) I would come out well ahead.

    And stability? Do they honestly think anyone is going to flip over? Has that EVER happened????

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobJ View Post
    Way too many cooks in the kitchen over at PacCup. They'll end up with a cruising rally and we'll have to add a DH division to our race. (Did I really say that?)

    First the DW ratings (new PCR) which took some of our boats right out of it. Then the cruising division, then weighing all the boats (yes!) and now a bogus stability rating that eliminates boats like the venerable Hawaii sled, the Olson 30.
    Bob, I think this is a great idea, frankly. I'm only doing the Pac Cup because at 70 I don't feel completely comfortable doing the trip singlehanded in a Moore 24 and the Long Pac doesn't give you the down wind experience. I'll probably sail a singlehanded qualifier anyway just in case my crew has to withdraw prior to the Pac Cup. Pogo

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    I suspect other folks around SSS would like to see a DH division in the SHTP. But then it wouldn't be the SHTP, we couldn't finish in Hanalei Bay because skippers and crew would want docks and other facilities, and on it goes until you have another PacCup.

    This has come up several times regarding the SH Farallones and we have sent skippers over to BAMA's race. We are the Singlehanded Sailing Society.

  7. #17
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    I've had an email back from Jim Antrim regarding how to figure out the Limit of Positive Stability for Beetle, and essentially I would need to measure in for an ORR certificate. That's an expensive and time consuming bit of work to generate all the numbers.

    The results would have a value to me personally, it's fun to know more about the boat.

    That said, there's little chance I would spend the amount needed to measure in for an ORR certificate; the last time I looked into doing this as part of a group of people to measure 5 boats in one weekend the costs were running $2000+ per boat to set it up. The biggest issue with ORR, from my perspective, if you change the boat in some way then you're certificate is out of compliance and you must rerate the boat, and that gets expensive (again).

    I see no need for the SSS to go that route, just keep bringing what you own to the start line.

    - rob/beetle

  8. #18
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    I can't remember where I read it (Latitude 38 or 'Lectronic Latitude?) but I read that all Pacific Cup entries would need to be weighed, those entering either the ORR or PHRF divisions. When I talked with him at Pacific Sail Expo last April, Paul Kamen said he was pushing for this. In fact, Paul wants to see all NorCal PHRF boats weighed, even for the local stuff (that includes us).

    If you're thinking about the 2014 Pacific Cup and are scheduling your Fall haul-out, you might want to ask about this or you'll be facing a second haul-out to be weighed. Those in the know at Pacific Cup YC are invited to post here.

    Long live the SHTP!

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    I have heard these rumors as well . Apparently there is, or was, a debate within the Committee and from what I heard a month ago the majority opinion was only require advanced measurements for ORR entrants. The fear being the added costs would scare off customers. Note the Pac Cup has nearly a full set of entrants.

  10. #20
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    pogen is offline Sailing canoe "Kūʻaupaʻa"
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    Unfortunately, all these rumors are just that -- there is no mention in the PacCup NOR of any of this. Pretty disappointing.

    And just weighing you boat won't be worth much unless you pull all the gear out, empty tanks, and have the appropriate witnesses etc or whatever ORR requires.

    Edit: IMHO, NorCal PHRF might be better served to just give up on PHRF and make everyone go to ORR. Why subject everyone to much of the expense of getting semi-measured, and then go through some flaky semi-application of bad data, tempered by all the out of variance ratings grandfathered in from the past?
    Last edited by pogen; 08-29-2013 at 09:19 AM.

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