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Thread: Both Assy and Sym chutes going to Hawaii

  1. #1
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    Default Both Assy and Sym chutes going to Hawaii

    The YRA now allows both types of chutes with no penalty.

    VII G: "CARRYING BOTH SYMMETRIC AND ASYMMETRIC SPINNAKERS AT THE SAME TIME
    There is no penalty for carrying both a symmetric and asymmetric spinnaker at the same time. Boats typically rigged with a spinnaker pole that opt to tack their spinnaker on the centerline may receive a credit. Boats typically rigged with a fixed sprit that opt to tack their spinnaker on a moveable pole will be reviewed on a boat by boat basis and will receive a penalty."

    Will this affect races to Hawaii? Or does the PCH rating adjust for this.

  2. #2
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    It depends which Hawaii race.

    Pacific Cup uses NorCal PHRF's "Downwind Ratings" which are definitely affected by spinnaker area. Greater spinnaker area, which you would need with an asymmetric, appears to get penalized more heavily under Jim's ORR-based formula.

    SHTP uses "SHTP Ratings" which are regular PHRF ratings, adjusted using the "old" PCR adjustments. These adjustments were for LWL and displacement, not downwind sail area.

    If you are considering adding asymmetrics to your Laser 28, know you will need a much larger spinnaker to make up for the fact that most of it gets blanketed by the main, especially if you don't use a sprit. Your boat has a very fractional rig so to use asymmetrics effectively you would probably need jumpers to support a masthead spinnaker halyard. At that point the much larger asymmetric would affect your rating substantially.

    I think it's too long in the luff but you are welcome to experiment with my smallest asymmetric kite to see how it works on your boat. I'm almost certain you would need a sprit to get enough separation from the main - otherwise it will only be good for reaching. Luff 39.6, Leech 29.9, Foot 19.9, Mid-Girth 20.1 and area is 581 sq. feet as PHRF measures it.

    Bottom line - I'll wager you'll be better off in performance and rating to stay with symmetrics for a Hawaii race, but you're welcome to give mine a try.
    Last edited by BobJ; 02-08-2013 at 04:58 PM.

  3. #3
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    Thanks Bob, We have been using Melges 24 chutes for shorthanded and they seem to fit OK. (not perfect of course but they are the same overall size as our symmetrical) I have a short sprit (windsurfer mast) that I'm playing with. So far we don't see any speed change, just ease of handling. But sometimes sailing the hot angles needed is a pain. Would a sym/asym setup be faster going to Hawaii? I always assumed a rating hit that would cancel out any benefits.

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    If it's a typical Hawaii race (if we ever have one again!) the asymmetric could be marginally better in the light reaching section before you reach the trades, but that's at best 30% of the race. Then the symmetric chute at your normal rating would be better for the second half of the race, possibly WAY better (IMO).

    It also depends whether we're talking PacCup or SHTP. Your quote above only applies to regular PHRF ratings (and therefore SHTP ratings), not to the Downwind ratings used for Pacific Cup. I don't know how Jim's ORR-based formulas account for your spinnaker inventory. As I've written several times, the secrecy of this quasi-VPP based approach is my principal gripe with it. By the way, take a look at the Downwind rating on your certificate for 2013. I think you subtract 515 to see a number comparable to last year's, but no explanation has been provided anywhere.

    Jonathan, another option just came to mind. What is the luff/leech length on your regular running spinnaker? I have a 35' long sock set up with cockpit-run control lines. If handling is your main issue, try using a sock. A heavy-air gybe for example is much less traumatic if the kite is partially snuffed before moving the pole. Want to try it?
    Last edited by BobJ; 02-08-2013 at 03:25 PM. Reason: Add snuffer idea . . .

  5. #5
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    Though I originally thought otherwise (old school), given the same area AND a pole that can be squared, I believe asym are as good, or better, on all off-the-wind points of sail to Hawaii on any boat that will get up and out of its wave formation, such as a Laser 28.

    That said, Ronnie and Ruben did fine on their Moore-24's with just symmetricals......

    Unless one has a good crew, multiple drivers, and planing boat, like a J-125, sailing to Hawaii shorthanded on a sprit boat with an oversize asym is difficult. There is just too much sail area on one side of the boat for balance, especially if an AP is attempting to drive. You have to sail pretty hot angles, which don't always line up with the wave train. And squalls tend to tip you over with just a sprit, if the pole isn't squared.

  6. #6
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    If you read Max Ebb in this months Latitude it sounds like they want to try a new measured downwind rating. I always liked the idea of two PHRF certs. One for shorthanded setup and one for crewed. (But allowing both at the same time seems like setting up an arms race) I have to research the two types of chutes now that they are allowed before getting my 2013 cert. And what changes make sense. And yes, I want to do the Singlehanded Transpac some day so thats the rating I'm thinking of.

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    I'm ashamed to admit it's the 8th and I haven't picked up a Latitude yet - tax season and all that - but I found and read the article. It's hard to say if Paul K and Jim A compared notes before that article was written. It's even harder to say whether many Pac Cuppers would pay to have their freeboards and dynamic waterline lengths measured.
    Last edited by BobJ; 02-09-2013 at 11:53 PM.

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    I think the wording might be a bit confusing. The question from a rating perspective is not whether the spinnaker is symmetric or not (there you go Bob), but whether it can be articulated or not. So they are likely just measuring sail area and articulation. They don't seem to care how the sail is cut. I think in general an asymmetric will be larger in size, so the penalty from carrying both comes from that. If you also carry a symmetric kite on a traditional pole, you would be rated for full articulation and the larger asymmetric area. For non-planning boats I don't think this is wise, you might be better off with something like a Code 0 (area smaller than your symmetric kite for no penalty) for the more 'reachy' conditions. Whether this is a smart thing to do or not depends on the boat, its handling characteristics, crew you plan to have and probably only favorable on a limited wind range.

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    This is the primary reason I sold the J/33 and bought the J/92. I got good advice from Norman (then at Quantum) and concluded I would not be successful trying to convert the J/33 to use asymmetrics.

    Then when the J/92 arrived, I talked with Kame about getting a rating. He said I bought the wrong boat if I wanted to do Hawaii races (because it has asymmetric kites). However, it appears they still want to rate it like an Olson 30 for downwind - maybe because Olson 30's have proven to be such lousy boats for Hawaii races?

    (Good luck Jonathan.)
    Last edited by BobJ; 02-09-2013 at 11:55 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobJ View Post
    This is the primary reason I sold the J/33 and bought the J/92. I got good advice from Norman (then at Quantum) and concluded I would not be successful trying to convert the J/33 to use asymmetrics.

    Then when the J/92 arrived, I talked with Kame about getting a rating. He said I bought the wrong boat if I wanted to do Hawaii races (because it has asymmetric kites). However, it appears they still want to rate it like an Olson 30 for downwind - maybe because Olson 30's have proven to be such lousy boats for Hawaii races?

    (Good luck Jonathan.)
    Well at 4000 lbs and not quite a sportboat the Laser 28 is not an Olson or Moore... But the ease of sailing makes the Assy attractive. Thanks guys.
    Last edited by BobJ; 02-09-2013 at 11:57 PM. Reason: Edited my quote.

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