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Thread: Satellite Tracking of AIS signals, can this be a tracker solution ?

  1. #1
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    Default Satellite Tracking of AIS signals, can this be a tracker solution ?

    Hello SHTP Board:

    AIS tracking is now in place with LEO (low earth orbit satellites). This may allow combining the SHTP need from tracking with the requirement for an AIS transponder. Potentially this could lower cost for the boats as they need not rent Yellow Bricks, but would have to include the AIS transponder. I say potentially because the type of transponder may be a full power unit and satellite coverage may not be complete. VesselTracker.com shows coverage throughout the Pacific, so it is worth asking a few questions. There would be a subscription service for the club to access that tracking data. If you see any value in this let me know.

    Here is a description from VesselTraffic.com.

    What is Satellite AIS ?

    Satellite AIS (S-AIS) is an emerging technology designed to detect wide area maritime vessel movements on a global scale. S-AIS extends the range of the existing maritime Automatic Identification System. Where previously, detecting vessels only occurred within a relatively short range from shore, S-AIS allows maritime agencies and commercial organizations to obtain a more complete picture of their Areas (or vessels) of Interest, resulting in an improved ability to identify potential threats, better monitoring of traffic patterns, and a more cost effective use of other assets.
    How a Satellite Collects Data ?

    Satellite-based AIS is feasible because VHF signals from AIS transponders are able to travel the 400 or so miles into space to reach a low-Earth-orbiting satellite. The satellite receives the signal, and then forwards it to a ground station for processing and storage. From here the information can be delivered in a variety of electronic formats to any number of computer systems and displays.
    How we receive the Data from the Satellite ?

    A satellite orbits the planet and collects data as it travels, transmitting that data when it is in sight of a compatible earth station (also often referred to as a ground station, antenna or dish). A satellite typically passes within sight of an earth station in 10 minutes. Once data is downlinked from a satellite to an earth station, it is transmitted to the top-tier data processing centre(DPC). The DPC system receives all data downlinked at the earth stations and in only a few minutes, processes the data to extract every possible AIS message. In the next few seconds, you can see the resulting messages(vessel positions) in our systems.

  2. #2
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    A "solution" gone searching for a problem. How about we see you when we get there?

    Pretty soon we'll be singlehanding the way everybody rides Bart or the elevator - with a death grip on our electronic tether of choice.


    Problem is, the people who agree with me (and there are plenty) tend to not post on computer forums.

  3. #3
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    Bob,

    I don't quite get the point. The USCG now demands we have trackers. So we can all rent a Yellow Brick for $300, or purchase an AIS that is already mandated, at least the receive side, and end up with a system that will meet the future requirements of offshore racing (and you know we are going to be required soon to have full AIS transponders).

    As for the value of trackers - I was not a fan of same. However, there were two incidents that convinced me otherwise: 1) Bella Bartok 2) My own crisis when upon leaving Kauai my crew broke two ribs a day away. Upon my return to Kauai, as I approached the Bay, the lifeguards met me with a PWC, and on the beach were Ken, Lee Roper and RUbin, who had arranged the transport of the injured party to shore with the life guards. They knew something was up as I had turned back.

    Bottom line AIS my be a complete solution, why spend more $$'s on a tracker from Yellow BRick ?

    BB

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    Brian, I'm not aiming this at you personally. I appreciate your contributions to these electronic and technology subjects, plus I think you're a good sailor and all-around good guy.

    But your response shines a bright light on the real problem. In fact NO, the USCG does not demand we have trackers. For ocean races out of San Francisco Bay the CG requires we have EPIRB's - that's it. Nor are AIS transponders required for our race. We have required AIS receivers in the last two SHTP's; in fact I'm the one who conducted a poll on this very forum and based on the results, added the AIS receiver requirement in 2010.

    The 2012 SHTP Race Chair decided it might be easier to get the race's event permit if he could tell the CG that trackers were being required. He originally told the racers they would not be required, and there were at least a couple of participants who were none-too-pleased they were required at the last minute. Here it is from the horse's mouth: http://www.sfbaysss.net/showthread.p...=5496#post5496

    I had no trouble obtaining the 2010 SHTP event permit without requiring trackers.

    I don't want to debate the pluses and minuses of trackers - that's not the point of my post. But I don't want to see misinformation spread on this subject. We simply must stop bidding against ourselves on the level of equipment required. The Coast Guard requires an EPIRB and the minimum equipment listed in the CFR's (PFD, fire extinguishers, backfire flame arrestor if a gas engine, etc.) If we up the ante and offer trackers to get the permit, the CG will start requiring trackers. If we offer a Jibeset link to all of your personal information to get a permit (and we do), they will start requiring it.

    This just happened to me when getting the permit for HMB. No link? No permit. That has never happened before. I hope Ray Irvine keeps breathing in and out and pays his web hosting bills, because it would be very hard to duplicate what we've been providing the USCG through Jibeset - without them ever having asked for it.

    People, I don't wear a tin foil hat - really I don't. This is a real problem.
    Last edited by BobJ; 08-23-2013 at 11:01 AM.

  5. #5
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    Brian - on a side note - not replying to what I think is a misnomer about what the Coasties will and will not require (I really think they they will ever care whether or not we have AIS... lots of small boats with AIS can be a nuisance due to too many targets) - AIS is not the answer because its dependent on your boat's batteries - which we all know cannot be depended upon. If you want to track, it needs to be reliable - which means standalone (not hooked up to house batteries).

    On another side note - I like trackers - mostly because it keeps the home fires warm (ie keeps wife, mother and a few other family members happy - and several more entertained). The added safety is really "bonus points"' (for me).

    Last...
    This "where is my honey?" thing is getting pretty cheap...
    Iridium phone at $1200 to buy - or $500 to rent for 2 months with 2 hours of talk time.
    DeLorme (location and text) at $250 to buy - and another $100 or so for a year - with a rumored ability to rent that might take the whole cost down to $100 or so for the whole race and return.

    This tracking thing is going the way of paper maps/charts... when you can now purchase a GPS for not much more then the cost of a single paper chart. Never mind the cost of a real sextant.

    [Bob - sure you can navigate traditionally to Hawaii with a sextant, Nautical Almanac, HO249, paper and pencil... but folks doing that are getting few and far between... how many SHTP folks don't use a GPS? Though I remember when folks doing races to Hawaii though SatNav and then GPS was "unsportsmanlike". Tracking is going down this same technology path. And frankly it makes the race more accessible to more people.... tracking takes people that dream of going alone but have doubts and gets them "over the hump" and making that decision to "do it". In the end, one can always sail to Hawaii - whether alone or with a crew - any time one wants - without an EPIRB too!. Doing the passage as part of an organized race is inherently and all about sharing the experience with others. Having a small device on a stanchion sure doesn't change the "going alone" experience any for the racer... we lost the feeling of "real independence" when we made EPIRB a requirement. Adding a tracker doesn't make the experience any less "independent" then having an EPIRB. You don't have to tell your family and friends there is a web site they can keep track of you on. :-)]

    At least that's IMO.

  6. #6
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    Well again, my point is not to debate the pros and cons of tracking. I lost that battle a long time ago. Most of you know where I stand. I think ocean races are forever changed and while I'm okay with it for crewed races, I think it changes the dynamic of a solo race to Hawaii, and not for the better.

    "I really (don't) think they will ever care whether or not we have AIS..."

    I agree the CG doesn't care about us having AIS transponders, especially given their limited range, but my personal experience in getting event permits this year tells me that if we offer the CG mandatory tracking, they will require it from now on. There will be no going back. If you don't understand why that's a problem, go read some of the great voyagers again.

  7. #7
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    YEs, Bob, "required" may have been the wrong word. It would be nice to get the Race Chair to chime in. I had the distinct opinion that USCG was thought to be of the frame of mind not to issue without a tracker system of some kind.

    Brian

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    Jim, I have to disagree with your primary argument. An AIS could easily be placed on a small backup battery that engages when all else has failed, this is trivial and inexpensive.

    I suggested this as a means of saving yet another several hundred dollars. I think the Delorme is the cheapest, capable tracker and rings in at $295 plus an annual subscription fee. Why not see if that $300 or so can't be put toward something that is likely going to be mandated in some future season ? 12 boats on the open ocean will not clutter AIS just as 75 boats won't clutter Iridium.

  9. #9
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    I just read most of the 2012 thread on this subject (linked in my long post above). Whitall Stokes and John Hayward did a better job than I did explaining why some of us don't like the constant tracking in this race. I also had an e-mail exchange with Jim Quanci about the competitive aspects, and how trackers diminish the SHTP as a race.

    I ran across this post, making it clear that we're doing this to ourselves - it's not the Coast Guard:

    http://www.sfbaysss.net/showthread.p...=5539#post5539

  10. #10
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    Bob, a quote from a reader on the Trans Pac Race at PRessure-Drop regarding keeping track of the race on their Yellow Brick Web Page,
    "Thanks J - this will be fun to watch. Dare I say, more fun than that local deal going on? This is a great TP fleet! ".


    Apparently some key local racers find the tracking function good as a means of watching the event unfold, me included. I just have an issue with the cost of the level of redundancy we carry aboard. In the TP they delayed the reports six hours, seems like 24 would be better.

    Jim, some of the systems like Delorme depend on external power so will suffer from the "boat" electricity issue you raised. If we allow a few system types then we can all decide on the largest cost benefit for our boats. I think the Long Pac combined several sources of position data ??

    I sent some requests onto the vesseltracker firm asking for costs of using their system. If we have no interest in using AIS I will drop the inquiry.

    BB

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