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Thread: Satellite Tracking of AIS signals, can this be a tracker solution ?

  1. #11
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    Brian, right, and of course that was me. In an e-mail to Jim earlier today, I said "as an observer, I like tracking. As an SHTP skipper, I hate it."

    When I was SHTP co-chair my mantra was "Everything we do is for the racers - this is their race, their experience." This was partly in response to a prior SHTP chair who once told the racers in no uncertain terms "this is MY race!"

    So if the racers get together and agree they want trackers and are willing to pay for them, great. But so far we don't have any racers, and these mandates are being discussed.

  2. #12
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    I'll put in my two or three cents on the discussion of AIS transponders and send-ashore tracking (Delorme Inreach SE, Yellow Brick); they serve two different purposes, and can overlap when an AIS position makes it ashore via a satellite-based AIS receiver.

    The AIS transponder is useful to the skipper, the tracker is useful to the race committee and shore-side people.

    An AIS transponder is of immediate value to the TransPac competitor as it provides an awareness to shipping traffic that you are in their vicinity. The transponder is expensive - the Vesper WatchMate Vision Class B transponder I recently installed ran $1400 by the time it was all done. The transponder consumes power, though in small amounts. It provides situational awareness to me when sailing in limited visibility of the big shipping around me - and I like that. I've received calls from SF Vessel Traffic service advising me of ships not in the shipping lane that was coming too close for their liking. I've spoken with ships offshore that were pleased that I had a transponder as it helped them to take early action to avoid me.

    I'm not at all convinced that an AIS transponder, at the current price point, should be a requirement of the SSS TransPac race. When the bulk of the fleet already has one then it probably should be made a requirement. An AIS receive-only device comes in at a much lower price point and there is a fair bit of value to the skipper, and perhaps a receiver should be a requirement - I'd possibly lean in that direction, though I'd want to know more about the display capabilities for such a receiver.

    For purposes of promoting the TransPac a tracker is a super thing when positions are periodically updated on a public-facing race website, along with little tracks and things like that - and contributes nothing to the skipper's race (assuming that fleet tracker positions are not allowed to be relayed back to the fleet). A tracker is a headache for the skippers as they must be configured, installed, powered, protected, fussed over, and shipped back when it's all over. A tracker should not be a requirement of the race unless the race committee is going to supply the tracker at no additional cost to the racer, simply because the tracker does nothing for the skipper and does everything for the race committee. If the cost to enter the race needs to be raised to pay for the tracker, then so be it, but it is not fair to make the skippers pay for tracking when they don't need it and don't benefit from it.

    That said, I will be installing a Delorme Inreach SE on board Beetle, specifically to make my parents happy (Mom pointed at that when asked where her kids were, she could provide my lat/lon position!) and Kristen likes that she could utilize the two-way SMS text messaging if necessary. The tracker becomes another tool in the communications kit, which currently includes a hi-gain WiFi antenna, a cellular modem hotspot, an SSB radio and Pactor modem, and the VHF radio (I don't have a sat phone, though I sure thought about adding one to the boat - the cost to operate is so high that I would be likely to avoid using it whenever possible, therefore it's silly for me to have one). I have no personal problem with carrying a tracker as it is makes people happy that are important to me.

    The one place that an AIS can behave like a tracker was demonstrated by Nereida's position reporting via ExactEarth's satellite AIS receiver and associated web page - I believe that ExactEarth sponsored this tracking, and it worked out fairly well at picking up her Class B transponder. I have no idea what the cost would be to hire Exact Earth to do this for all boats in the fleet, and I know that cost to equip all boats witih an AIS transponder is significant.

    We are in a hyper-connected culture at this time, people seem to be freaked out that someone might not have a cell phone, or might not be reachable by email, or they might not know where someone is - and I find that odd. I find it particularly weird that someone going for a day hike or out camping feels the need to post position plots of where they are in near-real-time. Delorme touts the SOS feature of their unit; I carry an EPIRB and that's a much better built unit than a Delorme for offshore use, I'd rather have that than a Delorme any day of the week. Delorme touts the ability to provide mapping services when using the device with a smart phone - I already have really good, redundant charting systems on the boat, right down to paper charts (egad! - paper, really?). The Delorme, for me, is a relatively inexpensive automatic way to let people not on board know the yacht's position, and that can have value (such as for promoting the SSS race, or making your parents happy).

    For the race I would fall back to what we have done in the past - share positions between skippers via an SSB radio roll call (this has value to the skippers, they know where the other boats are and get to talk through problems if they choose to), and race committee provides trackers if race committee is willing to pay for the trackers. If trackers are too expensive, then forego trackers.

    - rob/beetle
    Last edited by tiger beetle; 08-24-2013 at 07:26 AM. Reason: correct typos

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobJ View Post
    As an SHTP skipper, I hate it."
    Hi Bob -

    Why do you actively dislike a tracker when you're on the TransPac? The little box sitting on the stern pulpit doesn't bother me, it just sits there and I don't even think about it (unless I'm worried that it is going to fall off into the water - then I wish I didn't have to worry about it). If there are winky lights and such that are distracting, wrap it in tape to make the transponder into an inert box, hopefully sitting there next to the fishing line skipping behind the boat.

    - rob/beetle

  4. #14
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    "I liked to sail alone. The sea was the same as a girl to me - I did not want anyone else along." - E.B. White

  5. #15
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    Just a quick comment from someone who has a class B AIS transponder (and obligatory radar reflectors). It was a great relief to me when I was spotted via AIS (and presumably radar but didn't inquire) when crossing the outbound shipping lane in dense fog and almost no wind on a collision course with a fast moving container ship. I was able to call the bridge via MMSI and the skipper altered course & speed. I had little ability to alter course, as I would have had to deploy my outboard. This is not a comment on tracking; but my wife was relieved to follow our progress during the Long Pac via the twice daily position reports. If AIS would work, seems like a reasonable solution. My transponder uses a splitter and the masthead VHF antenna (NOT to start another electronic controversy!).

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger beetle View Post

    I'm not at all convinced that an AIS transponder, at the current price point, should be a requirement of the SSS TransPac race. When the bulk of the fleet already has one then it probably should be made a requirement. An AIS receive-only device comes in at a much lower price point and there is a fair bit of value to the skipper, and perhaps a receiver should be a requirement - I'd possibly lean in that direction, though I'd want to know more about the display capabilities for such a receiver.

    >> I would agree, at $1400 it should not be a requirement for SSS or OYRA, but there are units down to $599. Rather than a requirement maybe SSS could accommodate two position reporting systems ? Assuming they become a requirement at all.


    The one place that an AIS can behave like a tracker was demonstrated by Nereida's position reporting via ExactEarth's satellite AIS receiver and associated web page - I believe that ExactEarth sponsored this tracking, and it worked out fairly well at picking up her Class B transponder. I have no idea what the cost would be to hire Exact Earth to do this for all boats in the fleet, and I know that cost to equip all boats witih an AIS transponder is significant.

    >>> This was precisely my point. If you have AIS it can be used for tracking out to Hawaii. There are at least two firms supporting AIS LEO Sat. tracking. Orbcomm is launching a 17 satellite galaxy and expect to have full coverage in 2013. Several sats are up. I have contacted them and VesselTracker to see what costs would be for fleet tracking. They can filter the data stream by MMSI number so the data stream received is only vessels of interest.


    For the race I would fall back to what we have done in the past - share positions between skippers via an SSB radio roll call (this has value to the skippers, they know where the other boats are and get to talk through problems if they choose to), and race committee provides trackers if race committee is willing to pay for the trackers. If trackers are too expensive, then forego trackers.

    >> in the past the RC had contestants pay, as I recall about $300 or so.

    - rob/beetle
    See response embedded. >>

    BB

  7. #17
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    Boy, I'm late to this party! Though I can't say I haven't been having the dscussions.

    Bob, Mr Wonderful ... And others want to bring back the VHF arrival announcement of the earlier races.

    Our 2006 race was magically posted online, often with fish reports, meal reports, macramé and so forth for all to see whenever. I think Rich Ray and maybe Greg Nelsen did a bunch of it. But I was sinking under the day-to-day operations. (Apologies to those who created the magic.)

    That was well before trackers had any reliability, and it was handled through the Communications Boats. And SSB. Cell phones and sat phones did the trick.

    That race had a once every 36 hour required check in, that resulted in a penalty.

    If I could have the same communications and position reporting this year....with some eager "on the water contributors" posting log reports, I'd really prefer that.

    Families stayed connected with the race as did the rest of a world wide audience.

  8. #18
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    Less communications technology the better. The SHTP, like local ocean regattas, seems to be a diminishing experience as society feels the need to be secure & wired. Every few years that go by, it feels like an important layer that makes up the thrill/experience/challenge is shaved away from ocean racing.

    I hope the SHTP does not become like the "Himalaya" tourist climb.

  9. #19
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    The short answer is "no, tracking vessels with Class B AIS via satellite is not yet reliable or feasible". AIS was intended for line-of-sight propagation within a short range ad hoc time-sharing network. While transmitters can and are being received by satellite, at the altitude of even low-earth-orbit sats, the Class B transmitters are very difficult to discern in the cacophony of Class A transmitters. Reception of Class B transmitters via satellite is at best intermittent.

    A way to describe the reception challenge is imagine a noisy party in a crowded room. If you stand near a few people speaking, you can follow the conversations. But for a satellite, the situation of receiving a Class B AIS transmitter is analogous trying to follow the conversation of one person whispering in that room using a microphone mounted at the room's ceiling. You'd only hear them during rare moments of silence. You can read more about the challenges here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat...n_System#S-AIS.

    I personally feel that some of the more general arguments I see in this thread against using technology aboard vessels is specious: unless there are adherents who are using only sextants and mechanical clocks (even that is "technology") for navigation, then they are only arguing issues of degree and personal taste. We no longer sail seas where sighting another vessel - and the risk of collision - is exceedingly rare, and assuming we are mere mortals who actually sleep while underway, then AIS with an automatic alarm is a way of keeping a "continuous (electronic) watch" as required by prudence, good seamanship, and the navigation rules. It helps to alleviate the (somewhat deserved, IMO) impression that racers are a bunch of dangerous hyper-competitive loose canons out on the water who pose a general hazard to navigation.
    Last edited by pbryant; 08-28-2013 at 12:35 PM.

  10. #20
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    Those are two entirely different things. As you suggest, I use a receive-only AIS with alarm to alert me to approaching ships.

    Having hundreds of people following my every move from their desk at home is what removes a great deal of the adventure from the SHTP experience. Unless they're more honest than most, it also removes a measure of the competitiveness from the race.

    Those who compare not having trackers to going back to sextants and Bowditch are greatly distorting the point.


    I also notice that so far, one planned SHTP competitor has weighed in on the subject and he agrees with me.
    Last edited by BobJ; 08-28-2013 at 10:37 AM.

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