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Thread: Tracker type comparison for use in the SHTP

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Critter View Post
    As I recall, at some point, during or shortly after the race, the scoring was totally wrong. YB apparently didn't understand how to do TOD scoring.
    Now you know who fixed it. It's one of many reasons why I'm not as enamored with YB as some of you. TOD is easier than TOT but they couldn't figure it out.
    Last edited by BobJ; 12-10-2013 at 11:47 AM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobJ View Post
    Now you know who fixed it. It's one of many reasons why I'm not as enamored with YB as some of you. TOD is easier than TOT but they couldn't figure it out.
    I assume this was a live guess of leaders etc ? If so, how did you project forward to the finish line to guess who would win ? I once did a sheet for the Pac Cup and made the assumption that the average speed over the course to date would be maintained to the finish line. Did you do something more sophisticated ?

    BB

  3. #23
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    Hello everyone!
    i finally got on the forum!! Mouton Noir is planning to do the 2014 race, but not signed up yet. Some issues with a relative's health may be an issue. We will see...With respect to the tracker: everyone I know who watched the race unfold on YellowBrick LOVED it!!! Loved ones and close friends were greatly reassurred by seeing the positions. I used the Brick all the way to Alaska, and was glad to have the extra security that having positions available to others allowed. I checked the Yellowbrick site, and they now have a new model. Several actually. These can be rented or owned. They can be mounted above decks on a special fitting that releases easily, or apparently mounted below decks with an external Iridium antenna and external power supply. The internal battery still works and is fully charged if you need to get it out the door and into a liferaft or something. The web site is: http://www.yellowbrick-tracking.com/. The model we used in 2012 is apparently no longer used. The new model is very small, and allows text messages to be sent. My feeling, having looked at the YellwBrick website is that YB is VERY experienced, and a much better choice than Delorme. If the rules allow for both methods of position tracking, then there should be no issue. With respect to results in real time, since time and energy has been invested with YB already, then we presuimably have both a contact there and history with them that gives us much more leverage. Also, I bet they could run the last race positions through the processor to check algorithms, which we can then validate. I probably will have a (purchased) Yellowbrick aboard regardless, but I think that it would be responsible and appropriate for the fleet to carry them.

    Mouton Noir is in Sven's right now getting the usual bottom issues addressed (if it ever warms up). Foxxfyre is for sale to the right person if anyone knows someone that would take care of her and sail her.

    All the best,
    Michael

  4. #24
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    As they say, "I don't have a dog in this fight," but have some thoughts anyway. I've sailed the PacCup with a YB beeping away in the bow seat. It made my wife, family, and friends comfortable to see that little dot move across the Pacific. Having a tracker wasn't a deal breaker on the home front, but the idea certainly helped. I'll be helping deliver a boat back from Oahu this August, and having that box beeping will be important on that trip, too.

    I helped run several pre-2000 TransPacs and was Commodore for one that Michael sailed "Foxxfyer" in. I can remember tense times when boats disappeared from the VHF/HF world. It's my opinion that distance ocean races should take advantage of the latest technology, including Satellite tracking. Making ocean racing safer doesn't diminish the accomplishment of sailing, especially singlehanded, across oceans.
    Pat Broderick, Commodore Emritus

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianb View Post
    I assume this was a live guess of leaders etc ? If so, how did you project forward to the finish line to guess who would win ? I once did a sheet for the Pac Cup and made the assumption that the average speed over the course to date would be maintained to the finish line. Did you do something more sophisticated ?

    BB
    Brian, I started with the reqular "who's ahead" formula: Difference in ratings X 2,120nm/3600, then dialed in the DTF. How YB used that for their tracking page calculations is above my pay grade, but they did confirm they used my method.

    Regarding tracking, if position reporting is being turned over to a third party (YB or whomever) there should be no time penalties, since the device (or company) screwing up is beyond the skipper's control. There is NFW I'm going to spend thousands of dollars to do this race if my results (due to time penalties) are at the mercy of a third party and its equipment. Moreover, it fundamentally changes our race, and not for the better. Where's the self-sufficiency which has always been the hallmark of the race? "You're self-sufficient, but Mommy will always know where you are if you have an oopsie."

    Finally, there are frequent references to the Pacific Cup. The Singlehanded TransPac is a very different race and I'd like to see it stay that way.
    Last edited by BobJ; 12-10-2013 at 05:01 PM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobJ View Post
    Brian, I started with the reqular "who's ahead" formula: Difference in ratings X 2,120nm/3600, then dialed in the DTF. How YB used that for their tracking page calculations is above my pay grade, but they did confirm they used my method.

    Regarding tracking, if position reporting is being turned over to a third party (YB or whomever) there should be no time penalties, since the device (or company) screwing up is beyond the skipper's control. There is NFW I'm going to spend thousands of dollars to do this race if my results (due to time penalties) are at the mercy of a third party and its equipment. Moreover, it fundamentally changes our race, and not for the better. Where's the self-sufficiency which has always been the hallmark of the race? "You're self-sufficient, but Mommy will always know where you are if you have an oopsie."

    Finally, there are frequent references to the Pacific Cup. The Singlehanded TransPac is a very different race and I'd like to see it stay that way.
    Tracking: Agree completely, there should be no reporting penalty as the RC has now assumed the responsibility of providing a working methodology. We will have to tighten the rules to make it clear racers are not allowed to take a tracker offline or obscure it's satellite view in some fashion. We should also be able to greatly reduce the role of comm vessel as they likely need only report other vessels positions to the fleet and not take position reports. If we have a missing vessel the Comm boat could attempt communication with same via relay, ssb, or VHF.

    Pacific Cup: Yes, sailors have a tendency to discuss their experiences doing the Pacific crossing in the Pac Cup or other venues. I don't see much danger in that having a huge impact on the nature of this race. The nature of this race is largely dictated by the rules we have adopted, which are very similar to Pac Cup, only varying on the margins. Since their roots are international it tends to make all ocean races very similar in execution.



    Thanks,
    Brian

  7. #27
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    pogen is offline Sailing canoe "Kūʻaupaʻa"
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    Actually, if you decide to let the tracker do the daily reporting, with no other mandated position report, then that is a pretty big step. I don't believe I have heard of a long distance race that used only the tracker for position reports. I believe Transpac, Paccup, Cabo, Bermuda, etc. all work on the "racer calls in once per day, tracker is just backup and for landlubber entertainment" mode. Tracker reliability has gotten a lot better in the last 5 years or so.

    Are you going to broadcast the noonsite tracker fix to the whole fleet once per day? Will tracker info be not out-of-bounds as far as being considered outside assistance? If a racer's tracker fails mid-race, what's the plan? He probably won't know unless he is informed somehow. And he can only be informed via satphone email or SSB, which he has to have on and tuned in to the right channel at some predictable time.

  8. #28
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    In 2012 position reporting was mandatory but by any means. It was declared that the tracker was sufficient for daily check ins. Two boats, myself, and the Moore 24 used the tracker daily position reports. It worked well.

    As I said earlier, the role of the comm boat will probably be reduced to just report tracker positions via an SSB broadcast. Of course there would be the usual chatter as well. Tracker data, delayed several hours, was open to all in the 2012 race.

    As I said earlier, if a tracker fails the comm boat would broadcast that fact and try to establish communication via SSB, or VHF. Folks on land could send email to the vessel in question. There would be no penalty to the vessel as the tracker operation is a burden on the RC.

    It is possible someone will fall off the radar screen due to communication breakdown. That is not new. Given boats have a tracker, an EPRIB, and a VHF at a minimum they are well covered.

    Brian

  9. #29
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    Thanks for continuing this debate.

    And I'm a stick in the md, really.

    Having a functioning Communications Boat (team) keeps a focus on the fleet by this relay.

    What was "sail to Hanalei" with a small list of equipment: EPIRB, raft...food, water....now puts a lot of pressure on the racer to pay THOUSANDS on electronic equipment.

    I do not want to eliminate the "failure to report" penalty.

    Essentially, what David said.

    Lucie

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mewes View Post
    Thanks for continuing this debate.

    And I'm a stick in the md, really.

    Having a functioning Communications Boat (team) keeps a focus on the fleet by this relay.

    What was "sail to Hanalei" with a small list of equipment: EPIRB, raft...food, water....now puts a lot of pressure on the racer to pay THOUSANDS on electronic equipment.

    I do not want to eliminate the "failure to report" penalty.

    Essentially, what David said.

    Lucie
    I disagee 100%. If we require tracking then the burden shifts to RC. These boats used to run to hawaii w.o. comm. penalty. Comm. is now rc responsibility
    Last edited by brianb; 12-19-2013 at 12:18 AM. Reason: Cell phone entry was partially unitelligible.

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