Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 20

Thread: Non spinnaker rating?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    239

    Default Non spinnaker rating?

    Having read through the NCPHRF rules, it appears that there is no rating gain for not carrying spinnakers. But the rules are formulated with "normal" racing in mind, not a race to Hawaii.
    Can someone knowledgeable comment on this? Right now I'm assuming the rating does not change for not carrying a spinnaker...

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    3,034

    Default

    Right, the SHTP rating (fka PCR) does not change for not having a spinnaker. See the NorCal PHRF Rules and Guidelines under "assumptions."

    But why would you want to "race" to Hawaii without one? It's a downwind race, right? You don't need the SSS to sail to Hawaii without a kite.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    239

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BobJ View Post
    Right, the SHTP rating (fka PCR) does not change for not having a spinnaker. See the NorCal PHRF Rules and Guidelines under "assumptions."

    But why would you want to "race" to Hawaii without one? It's a downwind race, right? You don't need the SSS to sail to Hawaii without a kite.
    Thanks BobJ. Yes. right - its a race and as such it is important to know the rules. If I were just sailing to Hawaii I wouldn't be asking these questions.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    193

    Default

    Gary,

    In my short time watching the race, what I've observed is that, while most...but not all...Carry kites, it's the twin headsail set up which sails most of the race.

    That doesn't answer your rating question, so I'll review this with Brian if we don't see enough opinions on the forum.

    This reply is in now way intended to say anything negative about Bob's comment. He's far more experienced with all ratings discussions.

    Lucie

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    239

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mewes View Post
    Gary,

    In my short time watching the race, what I've observed is that, while most...but not all...Carry kites, it's the twin headsail set up which sails most of the race.

    That doesn't answer your rating question, so I'll review this with Brian if we don't see enough opinions on the forum.

    This reply is in now way intended to say anything negative about Bob's comment. He's far more experienced with all ratings discussions.

    Lucie
    Thanks for that Lucie....my question was more about clarifying the ratings than wanting to change them. If there was a penalty for carrying spinnakers (or a rating gain for not carrying them) I would consider not carrying them and instead having a .75oz set of twins made ...or something like that. I was not intending to be controversial.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Capitola,CA
    Posts
    2,137

    Default

    The "Downwind" portion of a race to Hawaii doesn't really begin until almost halfway, southwest of the Pacific High SE lobe, west of 135 degrees, where the tradewinds begin.

    I can see some SHTP skippers "racing" to Hawaii without flying a spinnaker much at all. Been there, done that. Yes, flying a spinnaker to Hawaii is a rite of passage. But there are more than a few SHTP competitors who are not familiar or uncomfortable with spinnakers, don't have the proper rigging or gear, whose autopilot or windvane can't keep up, or whose heavier displacement boat goes hull speed dead downwind just fine, thank you, with twin jibs or a poled out headsail.

    Racing SHTP to Hawaii is not all about going fast in spurts. Sometimes the time lost changing from poled headsail(s) to spinnaker and then back to poled headsail(s) exceeds the extra distance possibly made gained when flying a spinnaker. Such a sail change may take 10-15 minutes, even for those who have practiced.

    RAGTIME remembers a fierce and practiced competitor in the 2008 SHTP was the O-30 POLAR BEAR. Eric routinely ditched his spinny after dark with arrival of the "first squall." And carried on at night with a poled out #2 while he caught up on sleep. At minimum loss in speed and gain in safety.

    We also remember in the same race one competitor arriving with shards of burnt spinnaker flying from his forestay where he used a flare hoisted on a boathook to torch his spinnaker wrapped tightly around the headstay. He had sailed much of his race under main alone.

    Of course if your boat is a Cal-40 named GREEN BUFFALO, spinnakering through the night while napping is SOP.

    I think it is a legit question. Anyone who wants to be competitive racing to Hawaii, whether SHTP or Pac Cup, is researching rating assumptions, and trying to figure out gain/loss of different sail combinations.
    Last edited by sleddog; 03-07-2014 at 03:00 PM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    3,034

    Default

    That's what I'm presently doing and the gurus have come up with some interesting ideas. Unfortunately they involve spending money. But it's fun - I love this stuff!

    10-12 years ago I corresponded with the local PHRF committee regarding the non-spinnaker question. It seemed to me that if a set of non-spinnaker ratings could be developed, or a flat adjustment for racing non-spinnaker could be used, more skippers might come out and race their boats single or double-handed. For example, at that time you got a 12 sec/mile allowance in the OYRA races for racing singlehanded. That was a good deal.

    The next year the committee added some guiding language to the PHRF Rules and Regs for racing non-spinnaker, but concluded those paragraphs with the strong recommendation that non-spinnaker boats race in separate divisions from spinnaker boats. That's what we do in SSS and our non-spinnaker division is large. But those are local races.

    The problems with racing non-spinnaker to Hawaii are 1) it's boring and 2) you're likely to miss the dinner and a bunch of the Tree times. It takes too much money, time and effort to race the SHTP if you're very likely to score a FAD.

    In my opinion. (Not trying to be controversial either.)

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    239

    Default

    No FAD's in this years SHTP. How did the Pac cuppers do? <grin>

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    3,034

    Default

    There was only one - AERIAGNIE, who finished the morning after the deadline. I don't think Pacific Cup uses the "FAD" designation though.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    119

    Default

    "The problems with racing non-spinnaker to Hawaii are 1) it's boring and 2) you're likely to miss the dinner and a bunch of the Tree times. It takes too much money, time and effort to race the SHTP if you're very likely to score a FAD."

    I'm not sure about that since I didn't use a spinnaker and was first to finish by five hours or so.
    The ratings make no sense to me at all. I've raged about this before and since I'm not racing again I will rant again without anyone questioning my motives.
    Scaramouche NW PHRF.....114
    NorCal PHRF...... 80 (and that's after an appeal that gave me some relief.)
    If you look at the down wind ratings adjustment by SSS you will see that I gained 2 seconds.
    I was the only one in the class who determined before hand not to use a spinnaker (after fairly extensive discussions with and advice from Jim Q)
    I don't have the information in front of me but everyone else in the class gained a minimum of 10 seconds (Lightspeed) which I believe was the second smallest DW gain.
    So from my point of view the PHRF first kicked the shit out of me by 25% and then the SSS did it again.
    For those who weren't there, it would have been impossible for me to have had a better time in Kauai. First to finish was a totally undeserved bonus that I plan to dine out on for years. The two boats in the class that corrected out ahead of me are both good friends and both tried a lot harder than me. Having said that, if I was the type of person that gave a shit, having the General beat me by 16 minutes after 14 days of racing would have argued quite strongly for a non spinnaker rating in my mind.
    I would like to add that my spinnaker pole weighs between 60 and 70 lbs. that and my 2oz assym spinnaker are just too much for this 66 yr old. Also my experience with spinnakers is not sufficient that I could fly one on Scaramouche and be considered a 'prudent mariner'.
    Is there anything more boring than an old fart pissing and moaning about his rating?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •