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Thread: Non spinnaker rating?

  1. #11
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    After the 2010 SHTP, I re-ran the results using NorCal PHRF's then-new Downwind Ratings instead of the SHTP Ratings we use (which are the old PCR's). Sometime I'll try that with this year's results to see how much difference it would make - or maybe Brian can do it.

    It used to be that if you didn't list any spinnaker dimensions on your rating application, your DW rating would be the same as your regular PHRF rating. This could be a big advantage since DW ratings are on average 30 sec/mile faster than regular ratings. I figured I could not declare a spinnaker, use the biggest twins possible and clean up on corrected time. That loophole may have gone away by now (or it will after the PHRF guys read this).

    I busted enough autopilot parts in the 2008 race that I had to sail through the best part of the trades (and finish) without a spinnaker. My opinion that "racing the SHTP non-spinnaker is boring" is based on that experience. However, it's MUCH easier to fly a spinnaker on my boat than it is on yours.

    And yes, pissing and moaning about ratings is a well-developed occupation - I've done my share of it.

  2. #12
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    Where exactly did the "downwind ratings" come from? What is the formula that is used to calculate them?
    FYI, there is no difference in the NCPHRF rating for a boat that does not carry spinnakers - I know because when I applied for my cert both ways, it was the same. Did you have anything to do with closing the loophole Bobj? <smile>
    Last edited by WBChristie; 09-10-2014 at 12:12 PM.

  3. #13
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    See sections VI and VII of http://www.yra.org/PHRF/docs/ncphrf_...guidelines.pdf. That makes it clear that the use of spinnakers is assumed on the ratings and that there is no credit for carrying a small or no spinnaker. So from a 'rating' perspective I don't see you have been treated unfairly.

    I think your only recourse would be to be put in a different division, but as the only boat sailing non-spinnaker it would be hard to justify to the race organizers.

    Cheers

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by WBChristie View Post
    Where exactly did the "downwind ratings" come from? What is the formula that is used to calculate them?
    From the horse's mouth: http://www.yra.org/PHRF/docs/DownwindPHRF.pdf

    FYI, there is no difference in the NCPHRF rating for a boat that does not carry spinnakers - I know because when I applied for my cert both ways, it was the same.
    Right, regular PHRF ratings are normally not adjusted for choosing to not carry a spinnaker. However, Downwind PHRF ratings are, or more accurately, you aren't given a separate Downwind rating unless you carry a spinnaker. WylieCat 30's are an exception probably because most of them race against spinnaker boats.

    Here is the current database of certificate holders sorted by boat type: http://www.yra.org/PHRF/docs/current...certs_type.pdf If you scroll down to the Alerion Express 28's on the second page, you'll see that DITZY has spinnaker dimensions listed and also has a Downwind rating. The next two AE28's, DREAM and SOBRANTE, don't have spinnakers and so they don't have DW ratings. Then if you scroll to near the end of the list and look at the WylieCats, you'll see that most don't have spinnakers but DO have DW ratings.

    Now I'll stir the pot a bit: Should the SHTP have a non-spinnaker division like our other SSS races? Would you be more likely to race to Hanalei if you could compete in a non-spinnaker division (boring though it may be)?
    Last edited by BobJ; 09-10-2014 at 01:33 PM.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobJ View Post

    Now I'll stir the pot a bit: Should the SHTP have a non-spinnaker division like our other SSS races? Would you be more likely to race to Hanalei if you could compete in a non-spinnaker division (boring though it may be)?
    Yes. But that's because I'm still a wuss about flying a spinnaker by myself and Kynntana is a scream to sail down wind, wing on wing. Ask Daniel. He was chasing us with spinnaker up coming back from the Lightship at over 12 knots.

  6. #16
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    So, the formula is a secret.

    According to the ratings, my boat (A Westsail 32) rates faster than a Ranger 33 and various other boats with about half the wetted surface and 1/4 of the weight. Interesting.

  7. #17
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    The fact that Downwind ratings are derived from a secret formula is the main reason why the 2010 SHTP skippers voted unanimously to not use them. The old PCR's (what we now use as "SHTP Ratings") are easily calculated with tools like this: http://sfbaysss.net/archive-shtp-web...alculatorr.xls

    Regarding your comparison to the Ranger 33 SM, your boat has over a foot more waterline and much more sail area (a third more just in the kite). NorCal PHRF's Downwind rating formula is sensitive to waterplane length and especially to downwind sail area.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobJ View Post

    Regarding your comparison to the Ranger 33 SM, your boat has over a foot more waterline and much more sail area (a third more just in the kite). NorCal PHRF's Downwind rating formula is sensitive to waterplane length and especially to downwind sail area.
    You forgot displacement and wetted surface:

    Downwind performance is strongly affected by length, downwind sail area, displacement, and
    wetted surface. Wetted surface is approximated subjectively using the boat’s underwater profile.


    Why were downwind ratings implemented?

    • Tighter, more fair race results than previous systems. (The downwind ratings replace
    PCR adjustments given in paragraph VII of the NCPHRF Rules and Guidelines).
    • To allow adjustment of regular PHRF ratings for high speed downwind boats so they can
    be more competitive on windward-leeward courses.
    Reversing the decline of heavy boat entries in downwind races such as the Delta Ditch
    Run. These ratings should give heavier boats a chance at the podium once again.
    • Better “first guess” ratings for boats new to the area.
    I smell a rat.

  9. #19
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    You're making me glad I don't do ratings. As you probably know, The Westsail 32 SARABAND won the Pacific Cup overall and was on track to do the same in the SHTP when his boom broke.
    Last edited by BobJ; 09-11-2014 at 08:46 AM.

  10. #20
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    If the formula wasn't a secret, this wouldn't be an issue. Or might be
    Last edited by WBChristie; 09-11-2014 at 09:28 AM.

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