Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 32

Thread: Lithium batteries

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Santa Barbara Sometimes
    Posts
    167

    Default

    “Lithium battery installations with safe chemistry have been in use for many years, decades for some. I've had them onboard my own and other boats I've distance ocean raced for 6+ years along with 60+ other boats I've helped switch over.”

    I’ve driven for more than 40 yrs and never needed seatbelts. Does that mean I shouldn’t wear them?

    The fact is that Li-based batteries pose a higher risk of fire than lead-acid batteries because a) Li-based batteries have higher energy density, and b) the electrolyte in the former is flammable whereas it is not in lead acids. (And toxic combustion byproducts are also far more likely to be generated in an accident with a Li-based battery than with a lead-acid one.) There is a wide range of Li-based battery chemistries available and some are much more stable than others, but all Li-based batteries have higher energy density and include flammable electrolytes, which mean that the fire risk is higher than presented by a battery with lower energy density and a non-flammable electrolyte (like lead acid). However, just as some choose to use gasoline or propane even though the presence of those fuels on a boat significantly increases the risk of a fire, the intrinsically higher risk of fire associated with Li-based batteries may be acceptable to some, and the subject risks may be lower than those presented by other aspects of single-handed sailing. Also, I bet nowadays we all have small Li batteries onboard - in our laptops, phones, etc. The difference between the small ones and a house bank is that we have a good chance of being able to chuck the small ones overboard before they do irreparable damage, whereas it may be impractical to deal with an out-of-control house battery.

    “The only real way to "slow down" a dangerous chemistry lithium fire is to cover in sand”

    I'd like to see a reference that supports this! Sand may be recommended for small, eg, laptop, batteries but larger ‘traction’ Li-based battery fires call for different means. The NFPA appears to recommend that 1st responders use aqueous agents, for example see,

    http://www.nfpa.org/~/media/files/re...rt-1.pdf?la=en

    The SAE has also published several studies focused on fire suppression of large Li-based batteries (used in ground vehicles) and I don’t recall any recommending anything other than aqueous agents (or ABC dry chemical or CO2). I’m skeptical of sand as a preferred suppression agent because the open spaces in sand will reduce quenching and allow convection (compared to water for example)… However sand soaked with beer may work well.

    http://www.theweatherprediction.com/humor/life/

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    235

    Default

    Lap Tops and phones for sure, most everywhere with out problems...So is battery size the problem?

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Santa Barbara Sometimes
    Posts
    167

    Default

    Yes, in this case, size really does make a difference. A big battery has more volume (thermal mass) compared to its surface area than a small battery so, in a fault condition, can overheat to a dangerous degree more easily than a small battery.

    An interesting discussion of Li-based batteries in boats at https://www.morganscloud.com/2014/01...ion-batteries/

    The article lists the many benefits of these storage devices and then makes this safety statement:

    “There’s always a downside, though, and in this case it’s not just cost. Lithium batteries, particularly the lithium cobalt oxide types, introduce some nasty failure modes: Fires that can’t be put out by ordinary fire extinguishers, a small but non-negligible explosion risk, and (my personal favourite) cell rupture, which produces an interesting “sweet apple” smell that you must learn to interpret as “get the hell out of there”.”

    FWIW, I’m not fundamentally against Li-based house batteries but strongly advocate awareness of the trade-offs. IMHO, while the Li-based battery technologies are advancing quickly (thanks to Boeing, Tesla and others), large-format batteries today continue to require significantly more attention than lead acids in order to be reasonably safe. Caveat emptor.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Humboldt Bay
    Posts
    135

    Default

    Singlehanded sailors could all use a little lithium.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHZ9jh7IhkU

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Santa Barbara Sometimes
    Posts
    167

    Default

    sometimes a little Li is useful... http://www.jailmedicine.com/wp-conte.../lithium1.jpeg

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    37.205346,-121.963398
    Posts
    788

    Default

    Somewhere in here there must be a Tee Shirt image for our next event ? Jackie ?

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    21

    Default

    So, I have decided to go with Victron. I had great experience using their BMV in the past.
    Check out their website for the specifics, but reading all this, I already feel a lot more comfortable and learnt a lot too:
    - Lithium battery 12,8V/90Ah - BMS
    - Lithium battery 12,8V/60Ah - BMS (MAYBE depending of how the next 6 months of practice go - meaning if I need another battery or not).
    - 1 X BlueSolar MPPT 150/35 (two if just two batteries).
    - Battery Monitor BMV-702
    - Cyrix Li-Load 12/24V
    - Battery Management System (not necessary on my boat because the output from the fuel cell or solar panel are not high...but it is a good add-on).

    Cheers

    Jerome

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    610

    Default

    Lap Tops and phones for sure, most everywhere with out problems...So is battery size the problem?
    Actually with LOTS of problems. Early laptop batteries in the 90s were lithium-cobalt and there were many fires caused during charging. Most all have switched over to LiPo (lithium-polymer) which also doesn't scale well into larger battery packs. No one I know of uses LiPo, Li-Cobalt or Li-Manganese in marine scale batteries. Some early setups did and there were some nasty fires. LFP and a few others are very safe.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    610

    Default

    So, I have decided to go with Victron.
    I like Victron products and use their chargers and monitors. However they are just packaging LFP cells with a cell balancer. There are many solutions out there using the same type cells available for $900-1200. An LFP pack with 90Ah provides 63AH useable at a 70% discharge rate from a totally topped off pack. The newer pouch cells cost $2000 for a 105Ah useable energy pack and come in at less weight @ 28Lbs.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    610

    Default

    Here is an old article describing dangerous and not dangerous chemistry types: http://cen.acs.org/articles/85/i51/B...Batteries.html

    The Enerdel pouch cells we deploy now are in use by major transit authorities all over the country including our own local Hydrogen powered AC Transit buses. Allison Transmissions signed on to use these cells also in their electric propulsion solutions. I'd like to think that companies installing millions of dollars each have done their due-diligence regarding safety.
    Last edited by solosailor; 09-24-2015 at 09:52 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •