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Thread: Autopilot Angst

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    Fremont, CA
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    I would not homer for RM, however, I can think of at least two boats that have won overall SHTP using predecessor to current RM system. Assuming one defines value in terms of a combination of time, money, and effectiveness, then RM has a role.

    RM ram failures are common, so I hope the Pelagic drive will be able to be used with the RM EV systems and it's parents. I suspect, as WBChristie said, one can just turn up the hardcover time. Although this sounds crazy, it is a trivial menu adjustment to play around with motoring in calm conditions.

    Todd

  2. #22
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    Sep 2007
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    Agreed - the input I've read and heard is that calibration issues with B&G and especially NKE are at least as challenging as what we've been discussing above.

    There's a helpful RM Tech Forum where problems like yours have probably already been discussed - this is the good side of their huge user base. If you need to send the component(s) back to RM's service facility, my experience is they are turned around quickly and for this kind of thing, without charge. Parts and support are readily available, and there's a vast resale market should you decide to take up BASE jumping instead.
    Last edited by BobJ; 10-16-2015 at 08:36 AM.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    609

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    It does confirm my instinct to stay the hell away from the Raymarine AP (with apologies to all the RM devotees out there), or more generally from mixing AP components.
    The Raymarine APs have proven themselves for many years from the ST4000+, the X5 and the Evo. All use the same drives and share displays, etc. I know there have been drive failures but I've never had one let me down and I've done quite a bit of offshore including LongPac and SHTP overall wins and so have many others.

    There is not a comparable system on the market..... X-5 and EVO are/were less than $1200. I paid <$900 for a new EVO at the boat show. For the price of an NKE you could have 4+ total systems of Raymarine (or two and another spinnaker !). Don't get me wrong, if you've got the coin to drop $6k+ on the NKE - go for it, you won't be disappointed. Still you need another backup or two for the SHTP.
    Last edited by solosailor; 10-16-2015 at 09:04 AM.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    235

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    I agree 100% with solosailor. Got a new EVO thing before the '14 SHTP. It came with a new 4000 ram (which is what I wanted to add to my "golf bag" of spares).
    Never did install the EVO...just stuck with my 6002 w/X5 system. Last minute changes before the race are no no's for me, so I didn't even install a new solar controller to replace the on-off type. I have since, and the improved controller does well. EVO is still in the box. Can't talk about the NKE or similar expensive ilk.
    Used a Tillermaster and Atoms vane on my first SHTP (teehee). Tillermaster was a riot (!) with a chute up...but doable as long as you "baby sat" it. Went to faster Navico stand alone tiller pilot for the 2nd SHTP. Settled on the 4000 and 4000GP thereafter. Still have several Navicos (now Simrad) for backups....I think I should confer with Brian to learn about his system. Compatible with my SeaTalk instrumentation?????

  5. #25
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    Nov 2007
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    I think I should confer with Brian to learn about his system. Compatible with my SeaTalk instrumentation?????
    Yes, it works with Raymarine brains..... I'll eventually add one of his drives to the arsenal, hear good things.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    132

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philpott View Post
    Tom, Dura Mater has a Pelagic. Brian and I plan to take it out onto the Berkeley Circle to calibrate it this Friday. I look forward to a downwind life without fear, without that hyperventilation up on the bow as I feel my autopilot getting distracted and heading up into the wind. DM is 6700 lbs before chocolate and other equipment. You are welcome to come sailing w me to see what you think. Wouldn't you rather spend all that money on a new beemer?

    Jackie,

    How did it go with Brian on Friday? Did you have a chance to race with the Pelagic AP this weekend?

    As for the money, why would I spend my hard-earned cash on a car that I drive every day when I can plow it into another vehicle I use no more than 20 times per year? Makes no sense.

    Tom

  7. #27
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    Sep 2007
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    Yeah, funny that. After this (great) weekend Rags can have anything she wants. New standing rigging? Sure. Some sails? No problem. Halyards? Name the color.

    I like my car too but all it (not she) gets is gas and oil. It's a loonie hobby we have.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
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    56

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    Hi:
    I'm the J/88 guy with the NKE and Octopus Drive (everything I state below is based on my reading, opinions and understanding which may have errors....and I am pretty new to this, have only had the boat since March)

    I have been quite happy with it. In the LongPac when we had wind .. current draw was about 2 amp ish. The Octopus Drive is a big hunk of electric motor (it gets rebranded by the various companies.....I ordered mine through NKE so it has an NKE sticker on it...but it looks identical to the SD-10 etc). The morse cable that connects to your tiller is equally beefy.....and gets used to push larger outboards around. Neither of these looks like they would fail. Apparently designed for the 15,000 lb or so displacements boats.. My tiller loads are quite small. A major consideration is how you connect this to the rudder. If possible a connection that does not involve your tiller is nice, because you then have another backup system. Could there be some small plastic part that will fail after 1,000 miles....absolutely....but most of the moving parts are tucked below in "safety"

    Hard over time....!!!!! keep in mind the cable drive mounts much closer to rudder, than the tiller pilots. What you care about is degrees of rudder changer per second. Which gets quickly complicated because as you move closer to to the rudder on the tiller you leverage goes down, so current draw goes up.....long story short, and many excel spreadsheets later....this is quite quick. Much more important than hard over time is how well the autopilot system will react to swell and how quickly it will correct. Once things really start to load up and a broach starts its too late for anything. The NKE system drives the boat with kite up in 18-20 knots beautifully. I don't have many autopilots to compare to. I am also using the Pelagic Autopilot as a backup which is a very nice unit, made by a really great guy. Buy two!

    Ok....some numbers
    My left arm at standard position can develop (Easily) 138 foot*lbs (probably lots more when excited), and easily move the tiller 26 degrees per second.

    The tiller pilots develop 160-300+ foot lbs or torque (the Pelagic is at the high end, the raymarine/simrad at lower end) but move at about 4-5 degrees per second.

    The NKE develops a little over 200 ft*lbs, and moves 7 degrees per second. Some of the small hydraulics develop 100 foot lbs but move 16 degrees per second. Despite higher current draw I am pretty sure this speed is why they are used on the minis.

    Regarding NKE and calibration, I am fiddling around to dial it in more, but it worked fine out of the box. The B&G displays are more attractive. I am sure there higher end autopilots would drive any boat equally well. The NKE has a little remote that if separated from the boat will put the boat head to wind. That gives me some degree of comfort (false though it may be).

    The raymarine evo unit looks very appealing. The price point is way way way better and you could buy plenty of spare tiller pilots. I would like to think that the autopilot function of the NKE unit would drive a boat with kite up in swell much better, and that is why a bunch of the solo sailors use these units. But I don't have a comparison to say one way or the other.

    Good luck with decisions.....

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    3,485

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    Quote Originally Posted by tboussie View Post
    Jackie, How did it go with Brian on Friday? Did you have a chance to race with the Pelagic AP this weekend? As for the money, why would I spend my hard-earned cash on a car that I drive every day when I can plow it into another vehicle I use no more than 20 times per year? Makes no sense. Tom

    That is an excellent point about the car v the boat. I’ll reconsider everything with that in mind. I went out today and played with my new Pelagic on the Olympic Circle. It was an ebb tide and I think the wind was about 15 knots with maybe bigger gusts. Typical afternoon wind between 1 – 4pm. Since I am not accustomed to my autopilot holding its course, it was a bit disconcerting to find myself heading for Mt Tam and then heading for Mt Tam and then, wait! still heading for Mt Tam! To be honest, without all my usual kvetching and moaning it was quiet on Dura Mater today and a bit boring. So I made myself some coffee and drank it and then spilled it in the cockpit, all the while – yes, still heading toward Mt Tam. Turning back toward Berkeley, sailing downwind I decided to be wild and crazy. I pushed the red button and then the green button and Dura Mater's course shifted ever so slightly. I think that's what it's supposed to do, but it was an unexpected experience for me. The tiller wand didn’t shake and pop off the tiller, Dura Mater didn’t head up into the wind once: it was completely copacetic all the way home. I made a little video with my IPhone but deleted it by mistake, so I’ll have to do it again. The Pelagic was easier to manage than my phone.

  10. #30
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    Sep 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobJ View Post
    Yeah, funny that. After this (great) weekend Rags can have anything she wants. New standing rigging? Sure. Some sails? No problem. Halyards? Name the color.

    I like my car too but all it (not she) gets is gas and oil. It's a loonie hobby we have.
    I have to agree with Bob. I had one of those small German machines for years but I routinely found myself stuck on 280N looking at the rear differential of a pickup truck at top speeds of 10 mph. Sure, I could beat nearly anything to the next wall of steel fog, 20 car lengths ahead, but why bother. Something clicked and I opted for investment in sails, rigging, and autopilots, (and more recently a new head). Way more fun blasting down the Bay at 5 kts with nothing but the occasional ferry, J-Boat, or a fog filled slot to contend with.

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