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Thread: Race or Rally?

  1. #1
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    Default Race or Rally?

    I have been doing some research into some of the "issues" that have arisen during our event in previous editions. Most of them involve the grey area of "outside assistance", and the dividing line between acceptable and unacceptable, which seems to shift depending on weather you view the Singlehanded TransPac as a race or a rally, or something in between (racelly? rallace?). Technically, it's a race and there are very specific rules limiting what is acceptable and they have always been included in the race instructions. But in spite of this, in past races there have been a number of occasions where these limits have been breached. Since the race committee did not observe these incidences directly they do not have any power to file a formal protest in order to maintain the strictest sense of a "race", which has resulted in many unhappy racers and race committee volunteers.

    This is YOUR event and I think you have the right as a group to decide. Assuming that you can come to some sort of agreement, I will do my best to see that your expectations are met, and we can all be happy this year, okay? I am posting this to the forum as I believe the discussion should be publicly viewable to future race entrants and race committee volunteers in order that they might gain a better understanding of what is the current event philosophy, and also to past race entrants and race committee volunteers in order that they may share their personal experiences. If you do not feel comfortable expressing your thoughts publicly, then I encourage you to email me directly and I will tally your input anonymously.

    Thanks for your input.

    your 2008 volunteer race chair
    Synthia/Eyrie
    synpetroka@earthlink.net
    Ride, captain ride upon your mystery ship. Be amazed at the friends you have here on your trip.
    Ride, captain ride upon your mystery ship. On your way to a world that others might have missed.
    ~ Blues Image

  2. #2
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    The SHTP has always been about friendly competition between “bring what you got” sailors. Someday that may change. But until then, SHTP entrants have received the Racing Rules and Conditions (RRC). “Racing Rules” are just that, and I consider this a Race, not a rally or hybrid.

    Within the SHTP RRC is Rule 3 stating the SHTP is governed by the 2005-2008 International Sailing Federation (ISAF) Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS) as adopted by the United States Sailing Association, with four listed exceptions (including twin jibs and autopilots). The RRS is lengthy, open to interpretation, and takes time to digest. The good news is the RRS is mainly written to prevent collisions: Port/ Starboard, Windward/Leeward, and Overtaking/Overtaken come to mind.

    RRS Rule 41, as well as SHTP RRC 11.1-11.3, deal with Outside Assistance. To quote RRS 41:
    A BOAT SHALL NOT RECEIVE HELP FROM AN OUTSIDE SOURCE, EXCEPT a) a boat or competitor shall give all possible help to any person or vessel in danger. b) help for an ill or injured crew member. c) after a collision, help from the crew of the other boat to get clear; d) help in the from of information freely available to all boats; e) unsolicitated information from a distinterested source, which may be another boat in the same race.

    Note should be taken that SHTP RRC 11.1-11.3 goes further into depth about Outside Assistance, and provides exceptions/interpretations, including 11.2 (d), that one can ask and receive info about repairs, but not routing.

    As has happened in previous races, where outside assistance was rendered, the RC may award redress for an assisting boat. It is suggested anyone going to another competitor's request for assistance attempt to document that assistance as to before/after position, speed, course, wind, and time lost in rendering assistance. And immediately notify RC upon finishing of request for redress.

    And to all Race competitors, including myself, a reminder: Be safe. Sail smart.

    ~skip S/V WILDFLOWER

  3. #3
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    Hey Sleddog,

    Thanks for starting this off. Now here's where we get into the shades of grey:

    Scenario 1: a racer broadcasts to the fleet that he's busted his roller furler and is missing a screw to repair it. Not necessarily a "life threatening" situation as covered in the rules. Another racer offers to "screw him". Should the racer that accepted outside assistance in such a non life threatening situation be disqualified? Should the racer that offered assistance in such a non life threatening situation be given redress?

    Scenario 2: a racer broadcasts to the fleet that he has been dismasted, but has fabricated a jury rig and is proceeding towards the finish under sail. Another racer in close proximity alters course and offers spare fuel to the jury rigged boat. The jury rigged boat accepts the fuel but completes the course under sail. Should the racer that accepted outside assistance be disqualified, weather he made use of the fuel or not? Should the racer that offered outside assistance be given redress?

    Scenario 3: a racer broadcasts to the fleet that his rudder has broken and he is having difficulty steering his boat with the emergency rudder. Another racer in close proximity alters course and offers to stand by to render any assistance if necessary. The injured boat manages to make the proper adjustments to his boat in order to continue towards the finish under sail but at considerably reduced speed and states that he does not need assistance. The standby boat does not continue racing towards the finish at full speed but reduces his speed to pace the injured vessel. How much redress should the standby boat receive?

    It is clearly the race committee's decision to grant redress if so requested and to then determine the amount of time that is deemed fair and reasonable. But the race committee does not have the power to disqualify for a rules infraction if they did not witness it, and apparently hearing it discussed over the radio either directly or indirectly does not count. So, either another racer must file a protest, or the racer must disqualify themselves, or nothing happens and thus the incident "never happened".


    Synthia/Eyrie
    Last edited by Eyrie; 06-14-2008 at 02:29 PM.
    Ride, captain ride upon your mystery ship. Be amazed at the friends you have here on your trip.
    Ride, captain ride upon your mystery ship. On your way to a world that others might have missed.
    ~ Blues Image

  4. #4
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    It seems to me that anyone who comes to aid of anyone else, for whatever reason, should get redress. If only to encourage all other competitors to ALWAYS do so. What kind of event would it become if a call for help went not unheard,..... but unanswered???


    More shades of grey.....

    Firstly....as far as outside assistance in concerned, (and I'm pretty sure that I may as well whistle into the wind on this one, but here goes anyway) .... I think that recieving GRIBs during the race should be considered a 'request for outside assistance'. One must, indeed, formulate and send a specific request in to whatever provider you use to get them in the first place.
    Whether one then takes a casual look and a wild guess, or feeds them into sophisticated routing software is immaterial - they got on board in the first place at the skipper's personal and calculated request. After all, no one can make the argument they are just out there for the taking, like weatherfax or voice forcasts.
    Is it any different than calling a service on your satphone (which anyone could also have) and being given a forecast (generic or specialized is not important) that is not available to all???

    how about this one....
    -Solo sailor A is charging along with full access to gribs via sailmail or satphone link.
    -Solo salor B has no access to gribs on board.
    -Sailor B chats to passing catamaran (not in race but going the same way) over VHF, and asks him if he has access to grib files aboard
    -Supposing passing catamaran gives him ONLY information obtained from recent grib file - the same that sailor A has just recieved himself
    -Is one more guilty of requesting outside asstance that the other???

    Jim/Haulback
    Last edited by haulback; 06-14-2008 at 11:22 PM.

  5. #5
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    I saw this post last night but wanted to sleep on it before responding.

    As to Synthia's three hypothetical situations, I would say redress is not in order with the possible exception of #3. In *no* case did the skipper "declare and emergency." If the skipper says "I am in trouble and need assistance" then any boats responding to the call should be given redress. Period! Even if it's something they "should" have been prepared for. Tell them they were not properly prepared or are just an idiot when everybody is safe.

    In case #1 I think both boats violated my idea of the spirit of the race. A broken roller furler is the type of thing you "expect" to happen and should be prepared to jury patch or work around. That is a large part of my preparation for the race. Insure as best I can things are in good enough shape they won't break and have an idea of the work around if something does break. If I lose a mast or a rudder or a roller furler, I will not be calling for help unless I feel it could turn into a life threatening situation. The situation in a previous race where the 23 foot boat lost rudder and then emergency rudder and was just drifting to HI seemed like a "life threatening situation" to me and the boat that stayed behind "in case" deserved redress.

    As for Jim's case of GRIB's, I have to disagree with you Jim, sorry! I will have to say that this is one of many really "gray" areas though. Yes, you have to request gribs, but it is pretty much as "readily available" as weather fax and both are free to all. Anybody in the race that chooses to spend the money to install the equipment can have access to GRIBS. Am I violating the spirit of the race because I spend $375 to attend Lee Chesneau's 2 full day weather seminars so I can better use the information on weather faxes and not everybody can do that? If you get the information yourself, from a publicly available unpaid source it's OK. If you ask a visiting catamaran, you are getting help from a "person." Not everybody has access to that catamaran at that time. You asked for help by VHF voice or even if you had them pass you paper copies of the grib files, you are violating the letter of the law in both cases. If you want GRIB files during the race, then you should get the equipment to receive them. It's not really expensive. As a side note, I never trusted GRIB files anyway. Lee Chesneau is really against them. They are really pretty but they are "RAW DATA" from a computer model and making tactical or safety decisions on them alone is very risky.

    There is no one watching any of us. If you win by violating the rules, even a little, what have you really accomplished? I don't see the reason for all the rules or requirements but I will try to abide by them 100%. The belt buckle would mean nothing to me if I cheated, even a little, to get it. Might as well buy one at a pawn shop it would be *lots* cheaper.....

    Now here's a question for Synthia and the rest. If I came upon another racer in the middle of the ocean and passed them a bowl of ice cream would this be violating the rules by giving assistance????

    John
    Dream Chaser

  6. #6
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    Default Race or Rally

    I am not a member of SSS, I have never volunteered for any activity within the SHTP, I have never crossed the starting line. I have nothing but this years entry fee vested in this event. I have not earned much of a right to comment, but with that said, I paid my entry fee for the Single Handed Transpac RACE. I have prepared my boat for such and would be dissapointed with anything less.

    Providing Assistance: I strongly feel in any situation that those coming to the aid of another should not be penalized for that. Redress needs to be granted.

    Outside Assistance: The race instructions have set the parameters for outside assistance in 2008. Its up to the race committee to determine if those instructions have not been followed and to assign any penalties.

    Looking forwarded to being in CA. end of this month,

    Don
    Warriors Wish

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warriors Wish View Post
    Outside Assistance: The race instructions have set the parameters for outside assistance in 2008. Its up to the race committee to determine if those instructions have not been followed and to assign any penalties.
    Thanks Don,

    If you were race committee, how would you decide?

    Synthia/Eyrie
    Last edited by Eyrie; 06-15-2008 at 09:50 AM.
    Ride, captain ride upon your mystery ship. Be amazed at the friends you have here on your trip.
    Ride, captain ride upon your mystery ship. On your way to a world that others might have missed.
    ~ Blues Image

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by haulback View Post
    It seems to me that anyone who comes to aid of anyone else, for whatever reason, should get redress. If only to encourage all other competitors to ALWAYS do so. What kind of event would it become if a call for help went not unheard,..... but unanswered???

    Jim/Haulback
    Thanks Jim,

    You answered the first question, but what about the second question, should the person accepting the aid be disqualified?

    Synthia/Eyrie
    Ride, captain ride upon your mystery ship. Be amazed at the friends you have here on your trip.
    Ride, captain ride upon your mystery ship. On your way to a world that others might have missed.
    ~ Blues Image

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Hayward View Post
    The situation in a previous race where the 23 foot boat lost rudder and then emergency rudder and was just drifting to HI seemed like a "life threatening situation" to me and the boat that stayed behind "in case" deserved redress.
    Thanks John,
    How much redress do you think is warranted?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Hayward View Post
    Now here's a question for Synthia and the rest. If I came upon another racer in the middle of the ocean and passed them a bowl of ice cream would this be violating the rules by giving assistance????
    Well, unless you shoved a suppository into the ice cream and claimed it was medical assistance then you'd be in violation of the rules as stated.

    Synthia/Eyrie
    Ride, captain ride upon your mystery ship. Be amazed at the friends you have here on your trip.
    Ride, captain ride upon your mystery ship. On your way to a world that others might have missed.
    ~ Blues Image

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warriors Wish View Post
    Outside Assistance: The race instructions have set the parameters for outside assistance in 2008. Its up to the race committee to determine if those instructions have not been followed and to assign any penalties. Warriors Wish
    As Syn noted in original post, RC has no powers to assign penalties without either: a) A protest by a competitor who saw or was involved in the incident. b)Self reporting of a SHTP rules violation to RC at finish.

    We are on our own out there to do what is right. Yes, there have been and will continue to be "gray areas." Nobody wants to arrive in Hanalei with a protest pending.

    The Basic #1 Fundamental Racing Rule is: "A boat or competitor shall give all possible help to any person or vessel in danger."

    If you are in danger and do request assistance, attempt to spell out what kind of assistance is requested, and the urgency of the situation. There is no penalty to discussing a developing problem, and competitors will have their ears tuned as much as possible to health and welfare amongst the fleet.

    We are all gonna arrive at Hanalei Tree with big smiles, wonderful stories, and extra hugs for RC.

    ~sleddog

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