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Thread: Race or Rally?

  1. #11
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    Sep 2007
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    Hi Synthia,

    I won't mention the ice cream again.........

    As for the redress issue, I can only say what I would look at. If it's only a 12 hour deal or less in the trades, credit them the time to get back to "where they were." If it's like the situation where the "chase boat" essentially quit racing take their last 24 hours progress prior to the incident, figure when the "would" have arrived based on that and credit the difference between that and when they actually arrived.

    Any situation where redress is involved will be way less than perfect, but then so are the PHRF and PCR ratings even if conditions were absloutely constant, which they never are.

    I hope I don't have to render assistance to anyone, mostly because I hope no one "needs" assistance. Should the situation come up, I will be happy with whatever the race committee comes up with in the way of redress because that won't be my first concern at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by sleddog View Post
    We are all gonna arrive at Hanalei Tree with big smiles, wonderful stories, and extra hugs for RC.

    ~sleddog
    John H
    Dream Chaser

  2. #12
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    Sep 2007
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    Hi all, I was up north doing finishing touches to the bottom of Dogbark.
    Call me hardnose but I would offer no redress in any of the three cases. I would dsq both of the racers accepting outside assistance in scenario 1 and 2 if they attempted to finish the "race".
    I would agree with the determination that gribs are in the public domain and are open to be received by all. Interpretation of gribs by anything or anyone other than the skipper is not allowed by the rules as I read them.
    Second the hugs and thanks to the rc and all other volunteers. It is much harder than doing the actual sailing in my opinion.
    See you all soon, Al

  3. #13
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    Thanks Al,

    I sometimes hesitate to post here since I haven't done it before, you have, glad you appear to agree with all points including the rc.

    John

  4. #14
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    Sep 2007
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    If the SSS TransPac degrades into a 'rally', the accomplishments of those who have worked long and hard to prepare themselves and their boats becomes meaningless. I do not want the SSS Transpac to be regarded as a 'joke' race that no one takes seriously. I want it to remain an accomplishment that others regard somewhat in awe, so that we as skippers who manage to complete the race can be proud of our accomplishment for the rest of our lives. Don't even *think* of turning into a 'rally'.

    As for the scenarios, both skippers in case #1 and #2 clearly accepted outside assistance and should be disqualified.

    And as for Gribs, my opinion is that it is just another kind of weather information which requires different equipment to receive. So unless you want to get picky about protocols, it's no different than a weatherfax machine. Both of them you turn on, and you end up with publicly available weather information.

    - Mark/Alchera

  5. #15
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    Sep 2007
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    Vancouver British Columbia, Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyrie View Post
    Thanks Jim,

    You answered the first question, but what about the second question, should the person accepting the aid be disqualified?

    Synthia/Eyrie
    Of course......anyone who accepts material assistance on the course should be disqualified, regardless of whether they actually put it use it or not.

    in the case of the boat that was shepherded to the finish - well, he did make it without accepting anything that I am aware of...... Apart from a herdsman.

    .................................................. .................................................. ....

    as for the grib topic, as I said when I first mentioned it......
    [QUOTE (and I'm pretty sure that I may as well whistle into the wind on this one, but here goes anyway) /QUOTE]

    .................................................. .................................................. ....

    race or rally???
    Good Grief.......It's a race!!!

    Jim/Haulback

  6. #16
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    Sep 2007
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    My opinions:

    It's a race.

    As I read the Rules and Conditions, if a competitor receives anything other than a written message (11.1), medical supplies (11.1) or information about the repair of on-board equipment (11.2(d)), the competitor has received prohibited outside assistance and should retire.

    The request for assistance will be a difficult call to make because if the competitor receives the assistance, his race is over. If he doesn't, things may go from bad to worse and more than just his race could be at risk.

    Once the assistance is requested, all boats in a position to provide it are obligated to do so and should be eligible for redress.

    That's my "take" on it.

  7. #17
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    Sep 2007
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    A small detail that is obvious and is unlikely to come into play, but competitors should be aware of: Part 4 of the RRS states: " an engine may be used to help a person or vessel in danger." (without penalty)

    Of course if an engine is used to provide assistance, details should be submitted to RC.

  8. #18
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    This is somewhat peripheral to the discussion, but I wonder if perhaps an option could be considered in terms of those who "offered outside assistance" or some such. WHAT IF instead of a DSQ, which means that the person didn't actually "do" the race and earn their belt buckle, the possibility existed to give a competing boat a 96 hour time penalty (4 days)? That would pretty much guarantee that the boat would finish last in the fleet, but they would complete the race.

    A lot of us spend tens of thousands of dollars to do this race (RACE not RALLY, no matter how relaxed many of us are about the racing aspect of it) and to functionally deny the satisfaction of finishing to someone who may have offered assistance in all good spirit seems kind of brutal.

    This is kind of silly, but I personally don't wear the buckle I was given in 2004. It's in my chest of drawers at home, wrapped in tissue paper, waiting for me to return from the 2008 SHTP. You see, I STARTED the 2004 SHTP, but I didn't FINISH it and in my mind that means I didn't earn it. To DSQ someone from the race denies them the point of finishing the race, and earning the buckle. IMHO. Finishing last is finishing last but you FINISH, there's a BIG difference.

    Anyway, just a thought.

    A couple more thoughts:

    Offering physical assistance during the race when the person requesting assistance is not in life-threatening or boat-threatening danger should not result in the person getting redress. It MIGHT result in a 96-hour penalty depending on the situation. When the danger IS life-threatening or boat-threatening, then redress should be considered.

    Requesting assistance in life threatening or boat-threatening situations could result in a DSQ, but at that point being DSQ'd from the SHTP is pretty small potatoes compared to the alternative. You know...like dead or floating in your liferaft. Besides, if you lose the boat you're not DSQ'd, you DNF'd, which is technically different. Requesting assistance in a non life-threatening or boat-threatening situation is a DSQ or 96-hour penalty depending on the decision of the RC.

    Regarding situation #3 where a boat slowed down to accompany another boat who was disabled from loss of both primary rudder and backup rudder...

    There are more important things in this world than belt buckles. Respect and honor are two of them. If that skipper judged that the skipper of the disabled boat was potentially in danger, and put his own race on the line to make sure that the other man got to shore alive and well, then he can have MY belt buckle, because he sure as hell has my respect. I know both the skippers and I can tell you that I was mighty glad to hear that the skipper of the non-disabled boat stood by *just in case*. If he hadn't, we might not be having this discussion, we might be talking about what to do when a competitor is disabled... is there a penalty for sailing past him and keeping going?
    1968 Selmer Series 9 B-flat and A clarinets
    1962 Buesher "Aristocrat" tenor saxophone
    Piper One Design 24, Hull #35; "Alpha"

  9. #19
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    Sep 2007
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    Hi All,

    Perhaps I am missing something here, but there seems to be a lot of talk about somebody saying this or that is broken and other people taking it on themselves to rush to their aid. I don't intend to go the aid of "anyone" that doesn't request it. I don't mean this cruelly, but that is not only what I expect but what I "want" for myself. I will backtrack 500 miles to render assistance to a skipper who thinks they are in a life threatening situation and are requesting assistance, but I am not going to divert at all if somebody just mentions a problem and doesn't request assistance. I will not be aboard and if they don't think it's life threatening, then why should I??? If I was dismasted, lost a rudder, etc. I would almost certainly notify the communications boat/race committee, but that doesn't mean I need or want assistance, it just means I have a situation and I am merely giving them a heads up. Mostly the heads up is necessary because my speed and/or heading may suffer dramatically and people might wonder why. I would rather come in well after the race has finished, under my own power than request assistance. To me this is part and parcel of both the preparation and the execution of the race.

    To me, the moment I "call for assistance" I have dropped out of the race, officially, and will have to try again for my belt buckle another year and I would hope that any vessel coming to my aid at that point would be given redress. I would also hope and expect that if I call for help, the situation is so desperate that I have already set off my EPIRB and am prepared to abandon my boat if it's still floating.

    The help and suggestions from this forum have been great for the preparation phase, but I want to deal with anything that comes up at sea as if I was Joshua Slocum and don't have all the modern means of getting help. I thought that all the rules regarding help were there to keep this a "one man show" on the water and not a singlehanded sailing classroom. If I wanted a cruising venue where it is expected that half the fleet will need to call for help of some sort then I would have waited until November and joined the HaHa fleet. I think they even have parts for sale at Mag Bay or Bahia Santa Maria?? I hope the Singlehanded Transpac never deteriorates to the point that we have a West Marine parts boat rafted up with a Starbucks boat about Latitude 28.........

    My thoughts and hopes for what this race both is and will remain and no offence is intended to anyone.

    John
    Dream Chaser

  10. #20
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    I may be not much comprehending the rules all that much, but i obviously missed a really important class somewhere along the way - you can get DSQ'd for coming to aid of a mariner in distress????

    Where did this come from????


    as far as the belt buckle question....seems to me that if you get to Hanalei on your own bottom, without outside assistance or using mechanical propulsion - regardless whether or not you have mast or rudder still attached, or even make it by the deadline - you should be entitled the buckle.

    Not for entering, paying fee, meeting all requirements , or getting to the start line. You have to sail the course

    Jim/Haulback

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