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Thread: Carrying Asym and Sym kites

  1. #1
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    Default Carrying Asym and Sym kites

    The PHRF rules state:

    E. ASYMMETRIC SPINNAKERS (INCLUDES CRUISING SPINNAKERS AND GENNAKERS)
    Any increase in area over a standard asymmetrical spinnaker will be dealt with on a boat for boat basis, but in general
    will follow the same assessments for symmetric spinnaker area and pole length adjustments. Any ability to move the
    tack off centerline will likely receive a penalty of -3 sec/mi due to increased ability to effectively sail a deeper point of
    sail.
    F. ISP greater than I will be dealt with on a boat by boat basis.
    G. CARRYING BOTH SYMMETRIC AND ASYMMETRIC SPINNAKERS AT THE SAME TIME
    There is no penalty for carrying both a symmetric and asymmetric spinnaker at the same time. Boats typically
    rigged with a spinnaker pole that opt to tack their spinnaker on the centerline may receive a credit. Boats
    typically rigged with a fixed sprit that opt to to tack their spinnaker on a moveable pole will be reviewed on a boat
    by boat basis and will receive a penalty.

    I have a boat that is typically rigged with a spin pole and am hoping to carry a asym reacher, and will articulate it on the standard pole. This case is not explicitly called out. Anyone have direct experience with PHRF regarding this ?

    Brian

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Arnold, CA
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    Default

    I do not have direct experience, but I believe "E" answers your questions.

    You can carry both types, sized appropriately. Check YRA's rules for proper sizing. http://www.yra.org/PHRF/docs/ncphrf_...guidelines.pdf

    You will get a penalty for being able to articulate the tack with the pole.

    My boat has had quite a few modifications and had to be re-evaluated when I went to renew the certificate after purchase.
    Laura, at YRA, was helpful answering questions and getting my certificate together.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Albany, CA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brianb View Post
    The PHRF rules state:

    E. ASYMMETRIC SPINNAKERS (INCLUDES CRUISING SPINNAKERS AND GENNAKERS)
    Any increase in area over a standard asymmetrical spinnaker will be dealt with on a boat for boat basis, but in general
    will follow the same assessments for symmetric spinnaker area and pole length adjustments. Any ability to move the
    tack off centerline will likely receive a penalty of -3 sec/mi due to increased ability to effectively sail a deeper point of
    sail.
    F. ISP greater than I will be dealt with on a boat by boat basis.
    G. CARRYING BOTH SYMMETRIC AND ASYMMETRIC SPINNAKERS AT THE SAME TIME
    There is no penalty for carrying both a symmetric and asymmetric spinnaker at the same time. Boats typically
    rigged with a spinnaker pole that opt to tack their spinnaker on the centerline may receive a credit. Boats
    typically rigged with a fixed sprit that opt to to tack their spinnaker on a moveable pole will be reviewed on a boat
    by boat basis and will receive a penalty.

    I have a boat that is typically rigged with a spin pole and am hoping to carry a asym reacher, and will articulate it on the standard pole. This case is not explicitly called out. Anyone have direct experience with PHRF regarding this ?

    Brian
    Brian,

    You can use Asymmetrical spinnakers if they are not larger in size than your largest [measured] symmetrical spinnaker.
    I moved to smaller asymmetrical spinnakers and fly them on a pole. The penalty for the pole was offset with the smaller size spinnakers.

    If your boat is designed for flying asymmetrical spinnakers on a sprit (J-boats) it needs to be reviewed by the PHRF committee. Bob should be able to tell you his experience as he used a pole for the Pac cup.

    Dirk "TIJD" First 30JK

  4. #4
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dhusselman View Post
    Brian,

    You can use Asymmetrical spinnakers if they are not larger in size than your largest [measured] symmetrical spinnaker.
    I moved to smaller asymmetrical spinnakers and fly them on a pole. The penalty for the pole was offset with the smaller size spinnakers.

    If your boat is designed for flying asymmetrical spinnakers on a sprit (J-boats) it needs to be reviewed by the PHRF committee. Bob should be able to tell you his experience as he used a pole for the Pac cup.

    Dirk "TIJD" First 30JK
    THanks Dirk,
    I suspected that was the answer. I will have a new cert soon and shall see.

    Brian

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Austin, TX
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    Have looked into this a fair bit with the NorCal PHRF. Since your boat is already rated for an articulating pole, as long as your new asym is not larger than the symmetric you are rated for, your rating shouldn't change. An example, the Erkelen's Wolfpack. They carry only asymmetrics that they fly off the spin pole with no change to the rating.
    Life is not a dress rehearsal.

    Bermuda 1-2 on a Schumacher 28

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    9

    Default

    We ran both on the Moore 24 this summer worked great A5 was 85% of the class kite so no penalty, A2.5 was 1 SQFT smaller than the class kite. We had the A2.5 made this way so that we would not take a rating hit. Both were run off a pole set about 20 inches off the deck, with a tack like built in the the headstay fitting.

    Ian
    Moore 24 Mas!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Rogers View Post
    We ran both on the Moore 24 this summer worked great A5 was 85% of the class kite so no penalty, A2.5 was 1 SQFT smaller than the class kite. We had the A2.5 made this way so that we would not take a rating hit. Both were run off a pole set about 20 inches off the deck, with a tack like built in the the headstay fitting.

    Ian
    Moore 24 Mas!
    Hello Ian,
    Can I assume that "worked great" means you found it to be faster than your sym kites ? Was there additional stability over a same sized kite that was sym ?

    Thanks,
    Brian

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    9

    Default

    Hi Brian –

    We had the ability to conduct testing where we used the ayso and the Moore 24 fleet used sym kites on several occasions, three bridge, DHF, DHL, Spin Cup, and Costal Cup. During these tests we tried different set ups(no pole, pole on headstay, and squaring back the pole) and used both the A5 and the A2.5. We had conditions from o knots upto 26 knots of true wind speed at varying angels. We were always faster with the Ayso kites. We found that to get the most out of them they need to be on the pole. The A5 stayed on the headstay, and the A2.5 could be squared back to run deeper. We used the A5 and A2.5 exclusively for the first 1100 miles of the Pac Cup.

    On day seven of our Pac Cup with the base wind speed around 30 knots after two epic wipe outs, we switched back to our trusty S3. This is a shy kite that we have used for heavy running and moderate wind reaching. We used the S3 in the 2015 costal cup in 36 knots true, so we had confidence that it was a fast kite having drag raced another Moore 24 that year as well. Having not tested the A5 in deep running in big breeze and with the A2.5 overpowering us, we wanted to make sure that we had the boat set up right, no point going slow for a day to find out you had the wrong kite up. We used symmetric kits for the rest of the race and we were extending on the other Moore 24 every day.

    Our feeling is that if we had confidence in the A5 it would have been faster and more stable that the S3, but not having much sleep we wanted a setup we had unwavering confidence in the conditions at hand. If you make the switch, testing a practice are key

  9. #9
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    Hi Ian,

    Thanks for all the detail. That helps a lot.

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