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Thread: Questions on requirements.

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Sailor View Post
    Heavy Weather Jib/Storm Sail:

    I don't have a definitive comment on this issue. As written, paragraphs 3.33.3 and 3.33.4 appear to require two jibs; one being a Heavy Weather Jib and the other a Storm Jib. I defer to others on this requirement.
    Looking forward to an update on this one too ...
    P___/)___J
    Solo RTW

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamottep View Post
    Looking forward to an update on this one too ...
    While not definitive, further consideration of this has me convinced we're talking about two sails. These paragraphs are taken straight from USSA's SER for ocean races. And, doing the math for my boat, the maximum size for the heavy weather jib required by 3.33.3 comes in just over the stoutly-built 80% jib that came to me with Morning Star. And the much smaller actual storm jib required by 3.33.4 comes in at the size of an ATN Gale Sail for my boat -- and the Gail Sale meets 3.33.4's requirement for attachment without use of the foil.

    Perhaps someone in the SSS officialdom has a USSA contact who can give us the definitive word.

    In the mean time, it looks like there is a duplication between 3.6.1 and 3.6.2. The latter lists the set of flares that must be carried (in addition to those packed with the life raft), including "Two SOLAS orange smoke flares." 3.6.1 also requires two SOLAS orange smoke flares. Are we really expected to carry four of those (plus 2 for the raft), or was this a typo in the translation from the USSA rules?
    Lee
    s/v Morning Star
    Valiant 32

  3. #13
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    The text of the 2018 SHTP SER is taken from the 2016 SHTP RR&Cs, not the similar-looking (in format only) USSA SER. I think they just forgot to change the text back for this requirement, including adding the "or."

    I've spent several years trying to wind myself down from agitating about this stuff. So I'm going to try to stay out of it and hope the powers-that-be do what they said they would.
    .
    Last edited by BobJ; 12-01-2017 at 03:16 PM.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobJ View Post
    The text of the 2018 SHTP SER is taken from the 2016 SHTP RR&Cs, not the similar-looking (in format only) USSA SER. I think they just forgot to change the text back for this requirement, including adding the "or."

    I've spent several years trying to wind myself down from agitating about this stuff. So I'm going to try to stay out of it and hope the powers-that-be do what they said they would.
    .
    The 2018 SER's are largely copied from the Long Pac 2017 SER's, Which is derived from the USSA rules and the efforts of the Bay area Offshore Racing Council. There was also reference back to 2016 SHTP in some cases. The reason for moving towards consistency with USSA, to the degree we agree with their rules,(and we don't follow them to the letter where it doesn't make sense for single handing) is due to the fact that there are many racers in Northern California who engage in offshore crewed racing as well as the SSS events. Also there was a desire to have boats that had completed the Long Pac be essentially ready to go for the SHTP. The Offshore events are governed by USSA rules with modifications specific to Nor Cal waters. Hence the consistency makes it easier to equip a boat. Additionally, after the Low Speed Chase disaster in 2012, the Bay Area YRA worked with all the clubs associated in offshore racing to arrive at a reasonably consistent set of rules that would reduce the risk of future disasters. The consistency helps both the racers, and the management of the rules with the offshore racing council's that facilitate the content.

    All that said, I believe there is an error in 3.33.3 and 3.33.4. We will resolve this. It is my belief that the intent was one or the other.
    Last edited by brianb; 12-03-2017 at 11:13 PM.

  5. #15
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    Then the work we've done to develop our SHTP rules over almost 40 years is lost. You didn't do what you told me you were going to do.
    .
    Last edited by BobJ; 12-04-2017 at 05:05 PM.

  6. #16
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    Bob J: "You didn't do what you told me you were going to do. I'm very disappointed. "

    The You in your quote needs to changed to a you folks, as the changes were made by several.

    Is the work ost ? Not at all, in fact SSS input into the offshore rule set has had impact nation wide as have the overall input that was provided to USSA before and after the Low Speed Chase disaster. Also, if you review the 2012, 2014, and 2016 rules you will find that the concepts align in most respects to what is captured in 2018. To a large extent there has simply been a format change to align the rule numbers for consistency.

    I suggest we move on to making 2018 happen, for example, we are in need of volunteers for the season races. Anyone want to help run races in 2018 ?

    Brian
    Last edited by brianb; 12-03-2017 at 11:25 PM.

  7. #17
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    The 2014 and 2016 SER's, which were taken from the 2012 race as the root, were worded as follows with regards to Head Sails:

    [b] Headsails
    [1] If the rig is of a type on which a headsail is commonly used, then a storm jib shall be provided which attaches to a stay by a strong and secure method, is of an area not greater than 5% of the height of the foretriangle squared, and has a luff no longer than 65% of the height of the foretriangle, OR
    [2] A heavy weather jib of 85% LP or less, of non-aramid fiber construction, that does not contain battens.

    In the 2018 version and the 2017 version for the Long Pac the OR is missing. We will put this back in a revised version.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianb View Post
    The 2018 SER's are largely copied from the Long Pac 2017 SER's, Which is derived from the USSA rules and the efforts of the Bay area Offshore Racing Council. There was also reference back to 2016 SHTP in some cases. The reason for moving towards consistency with USSA, to the degree we agree with their rules,(and we don't follow them to the letter where it doesn't make sense for single handing) is due to the fact that there are many racers in Northern California who engage in offshore crewed racing as well as the SSS events. Also there was a desire to have boats that had completed the Long Pac be essentially ready to go for the SHTP. The Offshore events are governed by USSA rules with modifications specific to Nor Cal waters. Hence the consistency makes it easier to equip a boat. Additionally, after the Low Speed Chase disaster in 2012, the Bay Area YRA worked with all the clubs associated in offshore racing to arrive at a reasonably consistent set of rules that would reduce the risk of future disasters. The consistency helps both the racers, and the management of the rules with the offshore racing council's that facilitate the content.
    Here is part of my email response to Brian. I'm posting it here because it is important for newer participants to understand what has been happening:

    Starting with Jim Quanci, there has been a steady push to conform the SHTP rules to US Sailing's SER. The devil is in the details. For example, The Ocean SER requires a stability index of 115, a standard few (if any) boats in our fleet can meet. An Olson 30, the go-to boat for many past SHTP'ers, is about 102. This is just one of many examples.

    As the SHTP rules look more and more like the USSA SER, the differences will continue to go away (since most people are conformists) and we will end up with a set of rules that 1) Are not our rules and 2) Add more cost while eliminating boats that used to be able to participate. ...

    ... you are using the argument that the SHTP rules should look like the LongPac rules. I agree, but it is the LongPac rules that should be changed back.

    The SSS had perfectly good sets of rules for our races. We don't need to give over our expertise and autonomy to some guys back in RI and NY who don't understand us and will never do a singlehanded race.

  9. #19
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    This is a tough, complex topic with outside forces, namely the USCG and our legal system. What it appeared from a distance after the LSC event was the USCG trying to shift responsibility for safety away from the Person In Charge to the Organizing Authority. The USSA quickly joined in with the USCG, and perhaps there was no choice, I don't know. There are rules they came up with that I don't think are necessary - BobJ's stability index example, an Ovni doesn't meet this criterion - and in one case I can think of even detrimental to safety (running jacklines down side decks). But insurance and legal concerns also loom large for the Organizing Authority, and any deviation from "standard of care" - or in this case equipment standards can be used against the Organizing Authority.

    Just a few years ago the Organizing Authority could think through how would a prudent mariner prepare his vessel, and what equipment he should carry. The rules were there NOT to ensure safety, but to ensure a level race and not penalize the prudent mariner for carrying equipment, spares & tools. This kept responsibility for safety where it inescapably belongs in reality - with the Person In Charge. In today's legal environment, it feels like this is no longer possible. So here we are.

  10. #20
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    I think SSS is in a stronger position when it can say "We've run this race continuously for 40 years without a fatality. The rules have evolved over those 40 years and are reviewed for each race."

    vs.

    "These are the rules we got from US Sailing for all kinds of ocean races. We took this item out and that rule out because we felt they didn't apply."

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