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Thread: From Race Chair: Race Starting Philosophy

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobJ View Post
    I did as I always do: I wrote the planned start time for each class on my SI's and listened for any changes via VHF.
    Hi Bob -

    How could you know what the planned start time was for each class, given the information available in the Additional Sailing Instructions?

    The answer is that you can't work it out, unless you make an assumption (e.g., that the start for the prior class coincides with the warning for the next class).

    It strikes me that Jim is trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist; the problem appears to be concern that RC can't postpone starts once a warning time is published. Publishing a warning signal time does not lock RC into the position being unable to postpone a start (at least according to the Racing Rules of Sailing).

    - rob/beetle
    Last edited by tiger beetle; 02-25-2018 at 12:11 PM. Reason: fix typos

  2. #12
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    Hi Rob,

    Before I took over as Race Chair (2014?) I attended the US Sailing class for Race Officers. I think you might have been there too. They made a huge deal about this stuff, and how R/C's should feel free to postpone at any point in the sequence, at the drop of a hat (or at the hoisting of a hat I suppose).

    After that, I thought we had the same problem and changed the SI's to say "Scheduled Start (Unless Postponed)" or some such wording. We did have a couple postponements that year and nobody died. The next guy put the wording back to what we'd had before.

    As long as we keep the same policy we've always had in the SSS - we shoot anyone who files for Redress - I think we'll be fine.

  3. #13
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    Another perspective: Please keep in mind that the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS) are written to address a very wide range of race types, boats, conditions, etc.. It goes without say, SSS races are different and have their own somewhat unique set of challenges.

    It seems like the ASI changes were done to address potential issues that have not been a problem, and for many add some level of confusion. When I was on the RC, I heard that per a former Race Chair, “The SSS doesn’t do postponements.” I know that is not entirely true, but they have been and should be rare. Another reason for change was stated to address a General Recall. I’m curious, has there ever been a General Recall in the history of SSS racing? I can only imaging the chaos.

    Tom P.
    Last edited by Dazzler; 02-25-2018 at 10:06 PM. Reason: Fat finger typing...

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger beetle View Post
    ... The wording states the warning will be "at or after" the prior class' start. This means everything after Class C is unknown, and that's not helpful. At the very least, include wording to the effect that the start for the prior class constitutes (or coincides with) the warning for the next class. .... each skipper gets to take the published warning (11:00 for Class C), assume that the start for C is also the warning for the D, and then work out the start time for each class. Hopefully everyone comes up with the same answers.
    I assumed the "after" part of "at or after" meant a class's warning may be postponed, for whatever reason, to some later time after the prior class's start. I also made assumptions that (1) the RC would clarify such a situation and the proposed later warning time over the radio, and (2) "at" is the default, i.e. warnings coincide with prior classes' starts.

    I've been around just long enough to feel confident I had it all figured out, but yes, I think a line making these assumptions explicit in the instructions would have been helpful had this been my first race.
    Agree with BobJ, though, it all seemed to go well yesterday as far as I could tell. Seems everyone did the math ok. I think RC did a great, straightforward job of announcing each signal and hope that communications practice continues. I don't mind so much if things get complicated, as long as the communications are clear and everything is done in the spirit of keeping us sailing and having fun, not "gotcha! you didn't know rule xyz sub-part 2 and missed your start!".
    I saw a few mayhem scenarios when I was "binoculars guy" in fully crewed races where the RC made unhelpful radio announcements and deferred all questions to the flags. Not fun. Yesterday was fun.

    p.s. aside but related to rules: befitting the Corinthian race, of all races, props go to Sweet Pea for taking it upon himself to do a 720 after barely fouling me. It took me a few minutes to even realize that's what he was doing; I wouldn't have thought twice about it if he just kept racing.
    Last edited by Lanikai; 02-25-2018 at 01:18 PM.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazzler View Post
    I’m curious, has there ever been a General Recall in the history of SSS racing? I can only imaging the chaos.
    I heard four over-earlies in Sportboat yesterday and Jim was apparently struggling to see sail numbers, so that was probably close to becoming a General Recall. I heard some self-policing going on and chaos was averted.

    I agree with Lanikai - props to the race deck for a smooth job with lots of boats, and to Sweet Pea for doing the right thing.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobJ View Post
    I heard four over-earlies in Sportboat yesterday .
    I didn't hear anything ... I hope I wasn't one of them ...

  7. #17
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    I think I did a general recall at the start of last years Vallejo 1. Some multi’s had started and then the wind died. Called everyone back, waited and started the sequence over. The reason I was reluctant on postponements is it just comes back to bite you at the finish. Extending the finish time to offset the late start doesn’t work well as it gets you in the dark and a longer day for racers and RC. I considered early starts but worried that would lower racer participation needing to get up and out on the water extra early. No right answer that’s sailboat racing...

  8. #18
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    There should never be a general recall for over early boats. It is totally unfair to boats that got a fair start. General's are a means of the RC making up for not spotting the line.

    BB


    Quote Originally Posted by BobJ View Post
    I heard four over-earlies in Sportboat yesterday and Jim was apparently struggling to see sail numbers, so that was probably close to becoming a General Recall. I heard some self-policing going on and chaos was averted.

    I agree with Lanikai - props to the race deck for a smooth job with lots of boats, and to Sweet Pea for doing the right thing.

  9. #19
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    In 1975 (I think), I was on the committee boat for the Soling Olympic Trials on the Circle. There were dozens of identical white bows all hitting the line at the same time - that's when you had to call General Recalls, and we had many.

    (Man I'm old...)

  10. #20
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    Jim here, your Race Chair. Since I was the one making all these decisions, let me answer as best I can.

    First, I don't agree with Rob. If the NOR specifically says that changes to the sailing instructions are allowed only up to 9PM the previous Thursday, and thereafter any change to the SI must be done verbally prior to the first warning, then I don't see how my hands aren't tied. Consider if, as they did last year, the SIs state that Flag C starts at 11:05, Flag D starts at 11:10, etc. A boat in Flag C snags the pin, and sails off with it. If I postpone the start of Flag D, then aren't I changing the SIs, which says Flag D starts at 11:10? Now suppose we get everything fixed, and at 11:09 I drop the AP and go back into sequence for Flag D at 11:10. Some Flag D boats start at 11:10, others follow the postponement and start at 11:15. The 11:15 boats are then upset that some of their competitors started at 11:10, and a protest of the RC ensues. I suspect the boats starting at 11:10 would win the protest and the 11:15 starters would be SOL, because the protest committee would say the 11:10 boats followed the rules as printed, and the RC was delinquent in not following the RRS by writing such terrible rules!

    Now I agree I could list scheduled start times for each class, and in the above scenario the 11:15 starters would win the protest and the 11:10 boats would be OCS. I might argue that giving scheduled start times leads to expectations that may not be kept, but as long as racers know that, that's fine.

    I fully recognize that the SSS has unique issues, and that you are busy at starts. I hope my full communication over VHF of what was going on was helpful. If I'd postponed a start, I'd have been all over the radio. If I'd not rolled directly from one start into the next, I'd have been all over the radio. I was all over the radio and we followed the stated plan! I'm fully aware this violates the RRS, which states boats are racing at your preparatory signal (Start minus four minutes) and anything I give you after that point is outside help, but I do this fully recognizing the SSS is unique, and besides, I'm helping everyone.

    OK, now on to the four OCS sportboats. First off, upon review one of the four was a late starter from a prior division. That leaves three. One I called out, and shortly thereafter our view became obstructed by all the other boats starting between us and them. I thought about calling for a General Recall of that fleet, but I chose not to because it was clear to me that all three boats were not making up-course progress and appeared to be trying to return to start properly when we lost them, and when the dust settled, they were clearly behind the fleet. I agree, as one person wrote, a General Recall is equivalent to an RC failure. That's true, but also consider the SSS doesn't have resources to have a spotter boat at the pin end, nor do we have overhead helicopters with a nice "Stan Honey" yellow line painted on the water. I opted instead to contact the boats after the race for some self policing, as I feel SSS sailors are a pretty honorable bunch. I'm happy with this decision, as the General Recall would likely have led to more mayhem.

    I'm always open for suggestions, and I'm just trying to frustrate the fewest people possible!

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