Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 51

Thread: Power-Assisted Sailing - the Slippery Slope

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Posts
    1,813

    Default

    While it doesn't bother me if someone has electric halyard winches, stuff like an electrical system that powers hydraulics that adjusts a canting keel, and electric sheet winches doesn't sit well with me. For cruising and daysailing? Hey, fine....not so much for racing. I know that any boat with a canting keel bigger than a mini uses powered systems to run it. That's how it's been for 15+ years, now.

    Is more and more automation the "future of sailing"? I'm not qualified to judge. I dunno.

    I do worry a bit about dividing up the SSS races into so many classes that we dilute participation.

    Singlehanded PHRF <100 - spinnaker
    Singlehanded PHRF 101-135 - spinnaker
    Singlehanded PHRF 136- 165 - spinnaker
    Singlehanded PHRF 166+ spinnaker

    Singlehanded PHRF <100 - non-spinnaker
    Singlehanded PHRF 101-135 - non-spinnaker
    Singlehanded PHRF 136-165 - non-spinnaker
    Singlehanded PHRF 166+ non-spinnaker

    Doublehanded PHRF <100 - spinnaker
    Doublehanded PHRF 101-135 - spinnaker
    Doublehanded PHRF 136- 165 - spinnaker
    Doublehanded PHRF 166+ spinnaker

    Doublehanded PHRF <100 - non-spinnaker
    Doublehanded PHRF 101-135 - non-spinnaker
    Doublehanded PHRF 136-165 - non-spinnaker
    Doublehanded PHRF 166+ non-spinnaker

    Sportboat singlehanded
    Sportboat doublehanded

    Multihulls

    Express 27 One Design doublehanded
    J-105 One Design doublehanded .. or SF Bay 30, or whomever..
    Moore 24 One Design doublehanded

    Take 100 boats, divide them into the 22 classes I just listed, which is typical for our races even if I have the PHRF numbers off a bit, and you don't even have 5 boats in a class. Are we going to add the following?

    Singlehanded PHRF <100 - spinnaker Power Assisted
    Singlehanded PHRF 101-135 - spinnaker Power Assisted
    Singlehanded PHRF 136- 165 - spinnaker Power Assisted
    Singlehanded PHRF 166+ spinnaker Power Assisted

    Singlehanded PHRF <100 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
    Singlehanded PHRF 101-135 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
    Singlehanded PHRF 136-165 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
    Singlehanded PHRF 166+ non-spinnaker Power Assisted

    Doublehanded PHRF <100 - spinnaker Power Assisted
    Doublehanded PHRF 101-135 - spinnaker Power Assisted
    Doublehanded PHRF 136- 165 - spinnaker Power Assisted
    Doublehanded PHRF 166+ spinnaker Power Assisted

    Doublehanded PHRF <100 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
    Doublehanded PHRF 101-135 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
    Doublehanded PHRF 136-165 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
    Doublehanded PHRF 166+ non-spinnaker Power Assisted


    I'm not saying that's "the answer" especially since now in some cases the DH boats are sailing different courses from the SH boats, but is that where we are headed?
    S-2 7.9: "Wildcat of Loch Awe"
    1968 Selmer Series 9 B-flat and A clarinets
    1962Buesher "Aristocrat" tenor saxophone
    Piper One Design 24, Hull #35; "Alpha"

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    250

    Default

    Its not that bad Alan. PHRF bands are arbitrary to control class sizes. I see power assisted just like non-spinnaker... all in one class until the time there is a need to split them because of large numbers. As I said, from what I could see from PHRF data there is only a single boat with electric winches declared.


    Quote Originally Posted by AlanH View Post
    While it doesn't bother me if someone has electric halyard winches, stuff like an electrical system that powers hydraulics that adjusts a canting keel, and electric sheet winches doesn't sit well with me. For cruising and daysailing? Hey, fine....not so much for racing. I know that any boat with a canting keel bigger than a mini uses powered systems to run it. That's how it's been for 15+ years, now.

    Is more and more automation the "future of sailing"? I'm not qualified to judge. I dunno.

    I do worry a bit about dividing up the SSS races into so many classes that we dilute participation.

    Singlehanded PHRF <100 - spinnaker
    Singlehanded PHRF 101-135 - spinnaker
    Singlehanded PHRF 136- 165 - spinnaker
    Singlehanded PHRF 166+ spinnaker

    Singlehanded PHRF <100 - non-spinnaker
    Singlehanded PHRF 101-135 - non-spinnaker
    Singlehanded PHRF 136-165 - non-spinnaker
    Singlehanded PHRF 166+ non-spinnaker

    Doublehanded PHRF <100 - spinnaker
    Doublehanded PHRF 101-135 - spinnaker
    Doublehanded PHRF 136- 165 - spinnaker
    Doublehanded PHRF 166+ spinnaker

    Doublehanded PHRF <100 - non-spinnaker
    Doublehanded PHRF 101-135 - non-spinnaker
    Doublehanded PHRF 136-165 - non-spinnaker
    Doublehanded PHRF 166+ non-spinnaker

    Sportboat singlehanded
    Sportboat doublehanded

    Multihulls

    Express 27 One Design doublehanded
    J-105 One Design doublehanded .. or SF Bay 30, or whomever..
    Moore 24 One Design doublehanded

    Take 100 boats, divide them into the 22 classes I just listed, which is typical for our races even if I have the PHRF numbers off a bit, and you don't even have 5 boats in a class. Are we going to add the following?

    Singlehanded PHRF <100 - spinnaker Power Assisted
    Singlehanded PHRF 101-135 - spinnaker Power Assisted
    Singlehanded PHRF 136- 165 - spinnaker Power Assisted
    Singlehanded PHRF 166+ spinnaker Power Assisted

    Singlehanded PHRF <100 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
    Singlehanded PHRF 101-135 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
    Singlehanded PHRF 136-165 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
    Singlehanded PHRF 166+ non-spinnaker Power Assisted

    Doublehanded PHRF <100 - spinnaker Power Assisted
    Doublehanded PHRF 101-135 - spinnaker Power Assisted
    Doublehanded PHRF 136- 165 - spinnaker Power Assisted
    Doublehanded PHRF 166+ spinnaker Power Assisted

    Doublehanded PHRF <100 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
    Doublehanded PHRF 101-135 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
    Doublehanded PHRF 136-165 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
    Doublehanded PHRF 166+ non-spinnaker Power Assisted


    I'm not saying that's "the answer" especially since now in some cases the DH boats are sailing different courses from the SH boats, but is that where we are headed?

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Posts
    1,813

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Travieso View Post
    Its not that bad Alan. PHRF bands are arbitrary to control class sizes. I see power assisted just like non-spinnaker... all in one class until the time there is a need to split them because of large numbers. As I said, from what I could see from PHRF data there is only a single boat with electric winches declared.
    Sure...OK, for now, one boat, who is apparently doing OK at their racing, but not dominating their class at this time. Will this take off and in five years, we'll have 20 boats? I have no idea, I'm just asking what folks think.

    I'm just waiting for the first foiling boat to apply for an SSS race!!
    S-2 7.9: "Wildcat of Loch Awe"
    1968 Selmer Series 9 B-flat and A clarinets
    1962Buesher "Aristocrat" tenor saxophone
    Piper One Design 24, Hull #35; "Alpha"

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    446

    Default

    Bumping up this thread.

    Well, the PHRF committee has for some reason provided a rating certificate for this fully powered boat that completely breaks Rule 52, manually operating your boat. As I said prior, the slippery slope of having a single halyard winch has progressed to multiple winches and now a FULLY POWERED SAIL HANDLING SYSTEM.

    For a reminder of this boats configuration: All the sail handling is power driven and controlled via a wireless handheld remote. The below deck jib fuller, jib sheet, jib-boom rotation, jib traveler, main traveler & sheet, 2x halyards, backstay, vang, outhauls, etc. are all FULLY ELECTRIC POWERED. The only above deck powered winch you can access and ease a control line manually is the cabin top halyard winches. There is NO WAY to manually trim or ease the sails. All single-line sheets, etc. disappear below deck to its powered winch/reel.

    These advantages provide some benefit when racing against fully crewed boats and the lowered PHRF rating reflects that. However these advantages are greatly amplified when racing shortanded.

    It saddens me greatly but after 20-25 years of rarely missing an SSS race I've decided not to enter in protest. It’s quite unfortunate that the SSS is choosing to allow the fleet to include POWERED SAIL HANDLING, pushing buttons to get around the course and competing against manually sailed boats including being eligible for overall trophies.

    This is not about any particular sailor or boat, nor about excluding anyone from racing. It is about preserving what fair competitive sailing is. Au revoir, Greg Nelsen

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    2,539

    Default

    Greg, as you know, I have no pony in this race. I am sorry to hear that you won't be racing with us. It is a principled stand and I respect that. However, it doesn't hurt anyone but you. It's more fun when you are out there, kicking everybody's transom.

    Everybody in the room knows who has the electric winches, awards will be grudgingly given, but in the end, it's the sailing that counts. Will you decline to participate in every race from now on? Because I don't see those boats bowing out. And it would be a shame if you aren't out there any more.

    Maybe buy an old Cal with dacron sails, come out and compete with Dura Mater straight up? Katherine might go with you to Drakes Bay, Half Moon Bay if it was as comfortable as is my fat tank. To paraphrase: Make Sailing Great Again!

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Posts
    1,813

    Default

    Well, I have no idea who has the auto-boat, and I don't really care. I think it's interesting that Greg, no stranger to technology - carbon fiber, composites, and more feels that this is enough of an issue to make a stand about. I have a lot of respect for Greg and his skills, not having him out there is a loss.
    S-2 7.9: "Wildcat of Loch Awe"
    1968 Selmer Series 9 B-flat and A clarinets
    1962Buesher "Aristocrat" tenor saxophone
    Piper One Design 24, Hull #35; "Alpha"

  7. #37
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    47

    Default

    A bit late to the thread and trying to catch up. I think most of the pertinent points have been made. Cyc I guess is letting 8ball compete using the phrf adjustments, but in my opinion that doesn’t raeally take into account how radically the type of power assist in that boat impact sh sailing vs crewed. For YRA, we’ll be putting this boat into it’s own division as we did for the encinal race this weekend. Sorry that wasn’t apparent; we’ll make this more apparent in future races. If Scott and others are successful making boats like this plentiful, then we can think about giving out trophies; but for now consider this boat a demonstration of new tech, and while he’ll start YRA races, you won’t be competing for awards.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    446

    Default

    However, it doesn't hurt anyone but you.
    You smart women think alike..... that is the exact thing Kathryn said to me. Of course I am the one who loses out but someone had to bring this to light in a way that got some attention as NONE OF THE RACE ORGs LET ANYONE KNOW THIS BOAT WOULD BE RACING ON THE COURSE WITH THEM. This is what me got pretty upset..... WHY hasn't ANY race organizers ASKED their participants their views on eliminating Rule 52s manual power requirement?

    For YRA, we’ll be putting this boat into it’s own division as we did for the encinal race this weekend.
    He was in his own division at least from a few competitors view by there being no other entries. I HAD wanted to enter singlehanded on the smoke out date, then the bionic-boat showed up. So I entered Doublehanded and the race was smoked out. I couldn't get my DH crew back for the replacement date and as I didn't want to race against such a boat singlehanded I withdrew my entry. The other singlehanded that entered prior couldn't make the date but let it be known that he was put into that division with the bionic-boat without ANY knowledge that the boat was fully powered assist and wasn't happy to hear he would be a guinea pig. A note that he did race and was scored in the YRA/RYC Island Tour even though there was NO exclusion of Rule 52.

    Also, this to me has nothing to do with the rating that was assigned but that the boat got a rating at all. I will not enter events that allows such a boat to race level against manually powered boats. Of course as you note the benefit is greatly exaggerated when sailing shorthanded, especially singlehanded.

    I appreciate the feedback but "demonstration of new tech" that breaks the fundamental rules of sailing doesn't make any sense to this sailor. Cheers to all.
    Last edited by solosailor; 10-18-2020 at 02:32 PM.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    27

    Default

    Hi, I was looking for some background data:

    To my knowledge a regular J-100 has a rating of 81, the electric version Eight Ball was rated 66, so a penalty of 15 for the electrics.

    If rated in that division (as above, she was the only participant in the SH spinnaker division), Eight Ball would have been fourth in the DH spinnaker <69 division. Lindo was the only entry in the SH non-spin division, the boat (PHRF 69) finished 31 min later than Eight ball (corrected time). https://www.jibeset.net/show.php?RR=...OC=r1&TYP=html

    I guess the owner Scott is a very good sailor, he owns a rigging company (no sarkasm, just fyi).

    Cheers Jan

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    35

    Default

    Yesterday was a workout. Light air kite work all day, and towards the finish, against heavy current.
    Every physical move to adjust, hoist, trim etc usually resulted in a a loss of speed.
    3 Expresses, Fugu and Arcadia separated, had a shot and gave it their all but came up a bit short. If she had made the cut off Bombora should have won overall- even if she had not corrected out over Eight Ball. No way that would feel right otherwise.
    2 dNf's but still a great weekend. Thank you SSS.
    CJordan
    Last edited by everydaysailor; 10-18-2020 at 09:44 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •