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Thread: spinnakers or not

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    3,160

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    Hey, kids! Have you considered using the advanced search here on the forum? There are pertinent threads if you just type "spinnaker" into the key word box. Might save you some time, and focus on the singlehander participating in a race, not a cruiser dilly dallying across a lake. Just a suggestion.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Location
    Palo Alto
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    Hi Jackie! I made a list of what I found, maybe its useful IDK. My own searching had a very similar motivation to Jim's original question. I too am more interested in getting there than being first, but I realize some are more interested in racing than others.

    I tried SSS before I went the Internet route. I did start with keyword "spinnaker" and got 372 threads. I read every one of the 50 on the first two pages of results and just two were "sort of" relevant:
    https://www.sfbaysss.org/forum/showt...ight=spinnaker
    https://www.sfbaysss.org/forum/showt...ight=spinnaker

    If you search deeper and looks for twins, there is this (short) thread
    https://www.sfbaysss.org/forum/showt...spinnaker+twin
    and this one
    https://www.sfbaysss.org/forum/showt...spinnaker+twin

    There is a detailed post from BobJ on twins here:
    https://www.sfbaysss.org/forum/showt...spinnaker+twin
    but that wasn't really the question …

    and since I'm sort of compiling the links I found, here's one from Synthia on nets that prompted me to get one from her:
    https://www.sfbaysss.org/forum/showt...spinnaker+twin

    Thats about it… I *think*... If you know of any other relevant threads or know an even better way to find stuff here LMK. Thanks!

    The Google Groups thread includes some pretty hard-core sailors including single-handers, sail-makers, SHTP and SSS folks all chiming in on "spinnakers or not". I learned a lot from it.

    Some other "Internet" threads on my list, just for reference…
    https://www.cruisingworld.com/double...-fun-two-jibs/
    https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...rig-29360.html
    https://distantshores.ca/boatblog_fi...wind-sails.php
    https://www.sailingtoday.co.uk/pract...nwind-sailing/
    https://www.quantumsails.com/en/reso...adsail-options
    https://wavetrain.net/2016/01/05/mod...man-zoom-boom/
    https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ng-229146.html
    https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sail...downwind-86735

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Arnold, CA
    Posts
    531

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    As a newb to spinnaker handling prior to the 2018 SHTP I found Andrew Evans book helpful.
    https://www.sfbaysss.org/main/resources/
    Focused toward racing and lighter boats there is a wealth of information.

    Practice extensively with whatever sail combinations you intend to use.
    I raced as many singlehanded events as I could and set a kite as often as possible. Made lots of mistakes too!

    Lighter boats surf and accelerate bringing the apparent wind forward and necessitating constant trim, or a funky trim compromise.
    Driving was fun, even for many hours.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2HpLurdetg

    The most trouble I had was during hoist.
    Twice the boat took a quartering sea, the autopilot reacted too slowly and we came up into the wind mid-hoist, the kite filled and took the halyard out of my hand, dumping the kite in the water.
    One time as the spinnaker filled with water behind the boat like a giant drogue, I couldn't release the slip knot at the end of the sheet. As I reached for my knife the knot peeled off the end of the sheet releasing the load.
    That was a close one!

    Things can and will happen out there, but having a boat and skills you can trust will pay dividends.
    All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it is vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they act their dream with open eyes, to make it possible.

    T.E. Lawrence

  4. #14
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    892

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    In 2018 I did have plenty of spinnakers but didn't use them. My setup was fairly simple. I had a twin foil, which allowed me to carry the #3 to leeward and the poled-out #2 to windward. The manufacturer had recommended against carrying two sails in their foil but I guess I must have forgotten about that.

    More recently I have found that having 3 lines to control the pole (foreguy, topping lift, afterguy) allows me to first set the pole, pull the foot of the windward headsail through, then hoist it. Same works for takedown.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    446

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    With a roller furling headsail foil setup it is nice to retain the roller furler/reefing functionality when flying twin headsails downwind - fly the entirety of both sails in light air, and progressively roll up the headsails when the wind builds beyond where you're comfortable. To make that work you will need the ability to either take down the normal upwind headsail and hoist two separate sails, or retain the normal upwind headsail and hoist a second sail adjacent to it. Normally a furler with two luff tape grooves won't work for hoisting a second sail in the second luff groove on its own halyard while retaining the furling/reefing function. Sounds like you've come up with a solution for that. Verify that the upper/lower blocks/plates won't damage the furler foils when the sail is rolled up.

    One issue to consider is the weight of the headsails - you don't need (or want) a heavy sail when running deep in light air as the sail's weight is likely to collapse the sail. Try running deep with the sail you have and see how well it works as the wind gets lighter; when the sail just flops down from its own weight then you've found the minimum apparent wind speed that sail works well in. Decide if that's OK for your purposes.

    What I did was have a pair of purpose-built extra full and deeply rounded luff 155% headsails built out of 1.5 oz nylon and stitched to a common luff tape. The resulting sail was far lighter than my normal upwind headsail, and I was informed that it looks as though Beetle is flying a brassiere when running DDW. To use the twins (I call the sail a "butterfly" as I liken it to having butterfly wings) I have to drop the existing headsail, stuff that sail down below (where it gets folded and bagged later), and then hoist the butterfly. Hoisting a giant sail with two halves is not easy, paraticularly if you point the boat DDW as each half wants to blow over the bow pulpit and wrap around the headstay. The easiest solution I found is to reach up slightly and hoist the sail with the wings overlapped to leeward, that keeps the sail under control and definitely on one side of the boat, making access to the luff tape (for feeding purposes if it jams going into the groove) relatively easy.

    The downside to a purpose-built light air downwind sail is I have to swap back to an upwind sail for going upwind, as the butterfly is too full to point in light air and too lightly-built to handle the loads sailing upwind in moderate air. Beam reaching in 10 knots of wind it will do, when both wings are sheeted to leeward.

    I swap out to the butterfly after crossing the ridge, and it remains up until the finish. When I want to fly the kite (which I do fairly often) I roll up the butterfly and set the kite. If there's a squall or more wind than I want for a kite, down comes the kite onto the deck, I stuff it down below for repacking, and unroll the butterfly. As long as the boat doesn't need to go upwind the butterfly really works well.

    Philippe's point about setting the weather sail to the pole (and positioning the pole with its own independent lift/foreguy/afterguy) is spot on, as is Max's point of using the outgrabber and boom to act as the leeward pole. Beetle does carry two poles but only one is used, the second pole is on board as backup in case I break the first one.

    - rob/beetle
    Last edited by tiger beetle; 12-07-2022 at 10:44 PM.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    90

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    Hi all,
    I appreciate every response to my "Spinnakers or Not" inquiry thread. The opinions and relating of past experiences was very informative. Therefore I have ordered a sail kit from Sailrite consisting of two sails, generally shaped like a big genoa, made of 1.5 oz. fabric, and sewed together with a joint luff tape to be sewed for the roller furler. Part of my decision was influenced by an experience in the 1984 Ostar on a custom made J_35, for the race.i had a 4 foot longer penalty pole and a sail that took every inch of extra area that was legal for the pole. When the wind piped up and I became nervous about controling the boat, the snuffler did not work and the sail damn near drug me overboard. Amongst other lessons learned, might be to not try out brilliant new ideas in the middle of a 3000 mile ocean race. Or maybe That Rod Johnstone knew a Lot more about yacht design then I ever did, or will.
    Jim

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Location
    Palo Alto
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    104

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    >> Therefore I have ordered a sail kit from Sailrite consisting of two sails, generally shaped like a big genoa, made of 1.5 oz. fabric, and sewed together with a joint luff tape to be sewed for the roller furler.

    Jim: that plan of yours is really interesting to me. I'm in the same camp as you. Please let me know how this all comes out as you progress.

    I guess you are following in the steps of this thread: https://www.sfbaysss.org/forum/showt...Twin-Headsails

    I looked at Sailrite kits https://www.sailrite.com/sailmaking but do they have a kit for twin headsails?
    Last edited by GBR3068; 12-18-2022 at 09:36 AM.

  8. #18
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    Jun 2021
    Location
    Palo Alto
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    104

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    This thread sort of morphed from spinnakers to twins, which is fine as thats what jimb522 asked and wanted to know I think. Me too.

    I said >> One problem with twin Genoas is that both of mine are very heavy, and I can barely wrestle with one on the deck by myself.

    Tiger Beetle said >> What I did was have a pair of purpose-built extra full and deeply rounded luff 155% headsails built out of 1.5 oz nylon

    jimb522 said >> I have ordered a sail kit from Sailrite consisting of two sails, generally shaped like a big genoa, made of 1.5 oz. fabric

    Here's where I am. I have two 130% genoas both almost exactly the same shape. One is Neil Pryde, one Precision Sails. Neither are what I would call s jib top but they are not deck sweepers. They are heavy through. About 45 lb.

    So talking to my sailmaker, we are currently working on duplicating the existing genoa shape in 3.8 oz. nylon, with no Sunbrella protection, which should come out at about 15 lb. or less. The 3.8 oz. is a compromise choice and I dont know if its the right choice. The idea is that I can hoist the light headwind sail as a twin independently of the heavy genoa which always stays on the furler. I can stuff the light genoa into a bag and forget about flaking, which I believe is impossible anyway no matter how hard I try. I can also fly the light and heavy sails together as a sandwich.

    Any comments? on anything? Thanks!!

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Montara, CA
    Posts
    783

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    I didn't fly a spinnaker in 2018 and made it in 16 days. I flew a spinnaker in PacCup in 2022 and (would have) made it in 18 days, but we ran on engine power for a few hours toward the end so was DSQ'd. We had light wind pretty much the whole time. But my boat is an odd duck Freedom 38. It can sail very well on main alone when downwind.
    Last edited by Gamayun; 02-02-2023 at 08:42 AM.

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