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Thread: New Downwind Ratings in SHTP

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2009

    Default New Downwind Ratings in SHTP

    My goal is to complete the race, have fun, and get out there! Oh yea, I guess I'm a little competitive as well. So, here is my question: I just got back my 2010 PHRF certificate and it now includes a new downwind rating. What rating is the race committee going to use this year. Will this new downwind rating come into play?

    My normal rating is 162, but my downwind rating is 117.

    How do other boats rate?

    Last edited by BobJ; 02-18-2010 at 10:03 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2007


    Wow AJ, better plan to take the Whomper!

    I knew these downwind ratings were coming and made provision for them in the RR&C's, but I also allowed for using PCR's as we've done in the past.

    We'll continue to watch this as the new downwind ratings come out. Please let me know what yours are when you receive your new PHRF cert's.

    Quick add: I know that Jim Antrim, Kame Richards and the other members of NorCal PHRF have worked very hard on these new ratings. They are trying to keep racing fair for the older and cruisier boats, while making it easier for some of the newer, lighter designs to come out and play. This has been nearly impossible with a single rating system - SoCal has three ratings per boat! All to say that if any of you contact NorCal PHRF about your new downwind rating, please be courteous and patient with them - see rule 16.03 in the RR&C's.
    Last edited by BobJ; 01-20-2010 at 11:30 AM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2007

    Default Update

    Yesterday I received a list of the new Downwind ratings from YRA, for all the boats (except Hecla) who finished the 2008 SHTP. Before deciding whether to adopt the new ratings for this year's SHTP, I wanted to see how they would have affected the overall results in 2008's race. Dan Alvarez did the calculations last night (thanks Dan). Here they are (I'm sorry I couldn't get columns to work in this bulletin board):

    PCR standings/ DW standings:
    1) Wildflower/ Wildflower
    2) Polar Bear/ Polar Bear
    3) Ragtime!/ Alchera
    4) Alchera/ Haulback
    5) Haulback/ Ragtime!
    6) Chesapeake/ Harrier
    7) Harrier/ Dogbark
    8) Black Feathers/ Chesapeake
    9) Dogbark/ Carrol E
    10) Carrol E/ Feral
    11) Feral/ Black Feathers
    12) Dream Chaser/ Dream Chaser
    13) Warriors Wish/ Warriors Wish
    14) Ankle Biter/ Sunquest
    15) Sunquest/ Ankle Biter
    16) Kali O Kalani/ Feolena
    17) Feolena/ Kali O Kalani
    18) Na Na/ Islander
    19) Islander/ Na Na

    "Other data:
    Average time differential between positions
    PCR: 26693
    DW: 24833

    So DW made the competition closer by around 7.5%, not really too significant compared to PCR."

    Since my results are affected significantly and I'd hoped to race to Hanalei again in 2012, I am not going to be the one to make this decision - I'm asking the Rules Committee to make it. I hope they do so soon since it may affect some of your sail selection decisions.
    Last edited by BobJ; 02-18-2010 at 07:45 PM. Reason: Correction from NCPHRF

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Santa Rosa

    Default Pacific Cup Ratings

    Bob & Everyone,

    Here's the PacCup Yacht Club's announcement about using the NC-PHRF DW ratings for this year's race - a direct "quote" from the PCYC website.

    "The PCYC Board has unanimously approved the rating system proposed by the technical committee. The 2010 rating system will use ORR-based and YRA's PHRF-DW -based numbers to derive the Pacific Cup Rating.

    "As in prior years, faster and certain hard-to-rate boats will race under a rating derived from the ORR rating method, while the remainder will race under a rating derived from one provided by the NC-PHRF committee. These ratings will be scaled to provide overall results.

    "In the past, the Pacific Cup technical committee had done the job of starting with the 'round the buoys PHRF rating, and applying a range of factors to it, including displacement, LWL, and others, to arrive at a rating intended to be more appropriate for downwind racing. For 2010, the PHRF Committee, with input from (and overlap with) the PCYC Technical Committee took on the rather monumental task of creating appropriate downwind ratings for the entire fleet.

    "For more about the YRA's methods, see their FAQ. As explained to the PCYC board, the PHRF committee performed a similar exercise to what PCYC would have done, with additional factors including looking at sail area and at actual downwind performance. (This puts the P in Phrf).

    "The PHRF committee also has more formalized and structured procedures for review and appeal, as appropriate.

    "The Pacific Cup Rating has always differed, sometimes markedly, in relative handicaps from the straight PHRF rating. Boat A might owe time to Boat B around the buoys, but the reverse may be true in a majority downwind race. The use of the PHRF-DW rating is expected to provide fairer racing as well as consistency across a range of downwind races."

    They'll use ORR for some hard to rate boats.

    Pat Broderick

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2007

    Default No decision yet

    A prospective SHTP entrant just asked me if we've made a decision about using the new DW ratings for this year's race. This was my answer to him, for the benefit of anyone else who is wondering:

    "I'm still undecided on the new DW ratings and the Rules Committee was evenly split so that didn't help. Rescoring the 2008 SHTP results made me feel better about using them - my boat and the Cal 20 would have been hurt the most and neither of us is racing. Also I think it will piss off the establishment if I stay with the old PCR's. But if I had to decide today I wouldn't use the new ones. They still have a long list of boats whose DW ratings clearly aren't right and our fleet deserves better than that. One other factor is that I seem to be way more worked up about the change than anyone else in SSS."

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2007


    Bob and all,

    I just got my cert: 102 downwind. Sheesh, I owe Culebra time! And I still owe Taz a little. And I'm equal with a Cal 40. Uh huh, sure.

    Seriously, I'm not too concerned. But I'd feel better about these new ratings if there weren't some apparent errors.


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2010

    Default Result of e27 Desperado downwind PHRF Committee rating audit

    Thread circulated among e27, O30, M24 reported audit of PHRF committee members, Sailing Anarchy NC PHRF threads, other sources by this analyst.

    Down wind PHRF committee rating discussion based on fringe boats in Pac Cup, Ditch and Coastal only.

    These are the bad guy Hobbie 33, Henderson 33, Melgas 24 and Wabbitt on light side. West Sail 32 and Crealock 40 on heavy side.

    One PHRF committee member notes 8 years of data capable of anlaysis; but that has not happened. Where down wind penalty is now imposed on everyone to support a minority of the fleet. I'll address this in summary.

    Committee did mention it is up to each YC RC to implement or not. I vote not to implement in Northern California.

    Decision to impose dw ratings across the entire fleet is on fringe boats only. Boats for which I do not have rating concerns having beaten Hobbie 33 Sleeping Dragon boat for boat on Spin Cup .

    Then there are those peskie Wabbits on Ditch Run; win some lose some.

    And the Melgas 24 . . . leave it to Don Jesberg he's good.

    Committee genuinely desires to innovate and offer equity for down wind. Noted Pac Cup has long time adopted downwind rating (in trades).

    Noted LA where they have buoy, point to point and random course ratings. How confusing. I'm for simple.

    Is the next complexity imposing a wind speed allowance? Fortunately all committee members thought that was a bad idea.

    Personally, I'm happy with my current e27 all around rating of 129 and believe the majority of all other boats happy with their all around proven 'peer reviewed' NC PHRF ratings.

    I disagree with emulating what is thought to be leading edge for Pac Cup and LA PHRF . . . except for Pac Cup and LA PHRF which is not racing around here.

    Further, I oppose dw penalty for all inland bay that can be anything from downwind and rarely planinng down wind.

    Like Jazz in fall.

    And oppose on Ditch which is all around points of sail despite a fetch . . . mostly in light wind . . . except sometimes from Susun Bay to New York Cut. And between Antioch and Santra Clara Slough.

    Overall Ditch is a displacement course.

    Committee definitely disliked the idea of dw being applied to Vallejo

    For local ocean; Spin and Wind Jammers can be slow going, including at end of course. Windjammers in fall can be upwind.

    Coastal can also be slow going in the end.

    Plus there are heavy and light boat divisons and that works fine by me.

    I suggest some of the goodwill value of our light old fiberglass boats is based on 30 years of Northern California 'peer reviewed' rating evolution. And want to keep it that way. Regardless of the anolog or fuzzy logic inherent in our current 'buoy' all around ratings. They are peer reviewed from all conditions.

    Also suggesting this down wind penalty detracts from some of our light old fiberglass boats goodwill value. Detracting from what makes e27 a class where there is always a surplus of potential new owners. e27 is great buy regardless. But why lose the PHRF 129 incentive. Especially when you own one.

    Believe the same for O30, SC 27, M24.

    Yes, yes, yes we race in class and O30, SC 27 dw deltas are same. And M24 similar depsite our now giviing them seven seconds Moore under dw penalty.

    And what's that all about where Moore 24 sail to weight is more powerful then e27? I heard this annomaly under review similar to e37.

    Understand e37 downwind rating annomally of slower now addressed on honorable concerns; now differing from the exact dw rating formula itself.

    So don't be fooled. Boats currently racing in class formats are being manipulated into submission within their box. Feel the pain and don't be fooled by the immediate lack of it.

    Noteworthy the light old fiberglass boats this dw penalty hurts most are boats that no longer have a class assoication. I recommend joining into a coalition to keep our all around condition NC PHRF ratings as is.

    So here's the core issue.

    Some heavy boats want to win overall. Because that's what you do with certain IRC boats in these target races; Spin, Vallejo, Ditch, Coastal, Jazz, Wind Jam, Jazz, Spin and Pac Cup.

    The key issue is with dw adjustments on heavy boats is that their dw rating is now masked within everyone else's down wind penalty change.

    By imposing this new down wind rating on everyone, PHRF Committee has effectively masked a forumalc change across majority to support miniorty based on a handful of fringe boats.

    Now I do symapathize with all heavy boats. And I'm not opposed to displacement boats getting some sort of slower downwind rating allowance.

    In turn, committee has option to modify some light boat ratings and hear challenges.

    My reasoning for keeping what we have is this is the way NC PHRF has always been; peer reviewed rating adjustments by individual boat; for transparency.

    On a boat by boat basis everyone knows if the adustment works and can easily challenge it. But not when a minority change is now masked over by a majority; over favorable dw ratings are now tougher to see.

    I vote to oppose dw rating penalty given all around 129 rating; race proven, 30 years, peer reviewed, all kinds of boats, all kinds of courses, all kinds of conditions no formula can emulate.

    I vote for heavy boats concerned with their downwind ratings to pay the $40 and challenge them.

    Pursuant to PHRF committtee, no one, for years has paid $40 fee to challenge their rating regardless of displacement. Which seems to suggest everyone is happy with their all around 'buoy' peer reviewed NC PHRF rating.

    As I suggested, heavy boats who want some slow time down wind should pay their $40 to challenge for downwind rating allowance.

    Vote no on down wind penalty across majority of fleet supporting minority on fringe analysis.

    Mike Bruzzone
    Desperado e27 US8

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