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Thread: New Boat 4 Sled

  1. #4541
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    There you have it, straight from the galley of the comfy Westsail 32 TORTUGA. Warm air rises, filling the mainsail, creating speed and momentum. I doubt Manfred Curry ever considered that. Thanks, Randy! Voting is currently 4 Yays, 3 Nays, and one abstrention. Anyone else willing to chime in? Do you have something more important to do on a stormy, windy, rainy afternoon?

    PS, It is currently raining so hard at one SSS Forum's member's home that she is having to bail the overflowing horse watering trough to keep the resident mosquito fish from washing overboard.

    The Richmond Yacht Club Race Deck anemometer just blew down? Is nothing sacred these days? Jerry Keefe to the white courtesy phone please.
    Last edited by sleddog; 10-24-2021 at 04:07 PM.

  2. #4542
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
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    15

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    “It seems a bit of a stretch”. But, I vote yes, IF the boat is properly prepared and equipped to do so, and the water conditions are ideal. What is being suggested in the question is not something that would occur everyday. It’s what could possibly occur under ideal conditions. Very few Westsail owners have such occurrences in their priorities. That is the occasion in almost all Westsail observations. Also, although all Westsail 32’s were created equal, not all have matured equally. There are a few around, about 20, that have been “tweaked” under the waterline to enhance performance. “Once moving, weight is your friend in these conditions “. Just my opinion. Thank you
    Last edited by oregonian; 10-24-2021 at 08:10 PM. Reason: Spelling error

  3. #4543
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    Sep 2007
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    No.
    Wait a minute. If the TWA is 180 and the TWS is 3, there's no way the AWA can be 48! That would definitely make the answer no. I need to go back and read the question again.
    Edit: OK, the true wind is *nearly* dead aft. Some wiggle room there. I'm still saying no.
    Last edited by Critter; 10-24-2021 at 09:04 PM.

  4. #4544
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    Sep 2007
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    "There are a few around, about 20, that have been “tweaked” under the waterline to enhance performance."

    Since PHRF is a performance handicapping system, have these tweaks been declared so these tweaked hulls rate faster than un-tweaked hulls?
    .
    Last edited by BobJ; 10-24-2021 at 11:18 PM.

  5. #4545
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    As local denizen Bill Lee would say, "Are we having fun?"

    The answer here is affirmative. A walk to the Fossil Cliff last evening overlooked a busy ocean entertaining big swells and a steady breeze of 30-35 knots. As I returned to the CBC, rain began, there was a FROPA passsage, and the wind turned from S to West with a brief 50 knot gust that blew the boatyard gate off its hinges. I sit now typing at the nav station with PG&E power out, using a Group24, 12V battery, an LED light, and 150 watt converter. (A FROPA is weatherman lingo for Frontal Passage.) Hopefully the Richmond/San Rafael Bridge has reopened, as several big rigs blew over.

    The current vote on the Westsail conundrum is 5-4, in favor of the Yays with one abstrention. I would note the skipper of the boat in question has checked in with a "Yay," and that his sailing credentials include winning the 1988 Pac Cup, almost winning the SHTP with a broken boom, thousands of ocean miles as a well reputed delivery skipper, and writing the book on turboing Westsails. oregonian knows of what he speaks, and how to make apparent wind work in light winds.

    With the power outage, I will delay my report until tomorrow. This allows you to vote, change your vote, and make further comment or question. In addition, below, I attach a photo of the Westsail at the exact time in question and the instrumentation readout. Close examination of the photos may lend further clues for (re)evaluation and possible vector diagrams.

    Name:  Saraband.JPG
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    Name:  saraBAND2.jpg
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    And here is the original question to myself from SARABAND's skipper:

    "I have a question..... I must first give a few additional details. This involves a photo of Saraband sailing up the coast. Saraband is not stock (but the modifications are YRA approved). The hull has been faired into the rudder and the aperture made much smaller. At the time of the photo the bottom was SORC smooth. The conditions were IDEAL. There may even have been small wavelets from the true wind direction. Here goes: Under such ideal conditions, do you think you could sail a 32 foot boat at 4.2k with an apparent wind of 4.2k with an apparent wind angle of "about" 48 degrees? The boat that took the sailing photo was motoring at 6k but seeing 3k headwind on their anemometer. The instrument photo was taken at the exact same second. I have spent much effort to insure my KM is never reading fast. Do you think that what is portrayed is possible. Thank you"
    Last edited by sleddog; 10-25-2021 at 06:31 AM.

  6. #4546
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    May 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobJ View Post
    "There are a few around, about 20, that have been “tweaked” under the waterline to enhance performance."

    Since PHRF is a performance handicapping system, have these tweaks been declared so these tweaked hulls rate faster than un-tweaked hulls?
    .
    Yes. When applying for a phrf certificate, we note that the “rudder has been faired to the Hull”. Pictures showing the fairing and aperture were also supplied to the rating committee.
    Perhaps that’s why the rating for a Westsail 32 in the Bay Area is lower than anywhere else in the country.
    Last edited by WBChristie; 10-25-2021 at 12:07 PM. Reason: Added info

  7. #4547
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Bodfish, CA
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    My No vote will hold since the the results are only possible under limited conditions. For Saraband, I don’t have additional details, but it is likely those favorable conditions only occurred for an hour ( maybe) before the wave height increased or wind became unsteady.

    If the performance could be maintained for a majority of the passage, I would change my response.

    My guess is Captain Stange in the PNW could produce similar results. However, it is a special skipper and a well prepared Westsail 32.

    But kudos to Saraband!

    Ants

    PS. As for the storm, the Kern River Valley is generally out of the storm belt, so I took the motorcycle up into the mountains yesterday and said Hello to the clouds and moisture at 6,000 feet and returned home. The first rain arrived this morning.

  8. #4548
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    Sep 2008
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    SF Bay
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    My earlier Yes was based on the information supplied at that time, and any unknown affects of current. With the newly presented data and photo, I question the windspeed. From the surface condition and angle of heel, I suspect there’s more than 3-4 knots of wind. In the photo, it’s notable that the anemometer sender is low on the back of the boat. That’s a great location for DDW sailing to AP, but may be providing questionable AWS data for the 45° apparent wind angle. I suspect there was a little more wind. And as for data from the boat that was motoring, there are too many unknowns to make any sense of it.

    None of my comments are meant to detract from what is apparently a great job of preparing and sailing a W32 in light winds. Well done!
    Tom P.

  9. #4549
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    Thanks to all for participating in our little apparent wind exercise. Much of the fun of this Forum is the sharing of information, even if sometimes contradictory.

    Name:  Saraband.JPG
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    What we know for certain about the above photo of a Westsail 32 sailing on a close reach 10 miles north of Grays Harbor, WA, here's what I think:

    1. SARABAND is most certainly sailing an honest 4.2 knots through the water. There's a bow wave, she is heeling, the sails and 2 slot effects are working to perfection, and the giant gennaker is pulling like a team of horses. In addition, unseen, the bottom is smooth, fair, and streamlined, which, in my experience, can add a full knot in the conditions pictured. And we know the knotmeter had been calibrated. Apparently this "Wow" moment lasted an hour or so.

    2. There's seamanship at work here..DK and I are both advocates of having reef ties rove in place when needed. Nothing worse than trying to hang on while threading the bitter end of a reef tie with one hand through a small grommet without going overboard. Even the staysail has long reef ties, ready to go. In addition, the gennaker halyard is external. No unseen chafe on this vessel, the bane of so many ocean passages. No need to have internal halyards when off the wind. Windage aloft is not always a bad thing.

    Look, there's radar. You don't navigate the CA and West Coast on a regular basis without radar. Period. And you don't need the radome way up in the air. 10 feet is fine for getting a reliable 4-8 mile view.

    3. Is the true wind really blowing 3 knots? No. It takes 3 knots for wind to break surface tension and wrinkles to begin appearing on the ocean's surface. I not only see wrinkles, but small wind waves. My estimate is the TWS is 4-8 knots. PJ is correct, the wind is never steady either in strength or direction. And heavy boats have momentum and can coast through lulls. In addition, who has ever calibrated their anemometer? Can't be done. At least with any accuracy.

    I tried to figure out the TWS of the photo using known vectors of BS, AWA, and AWS, all shown on the cockpit instruments. But came up short. Something wasn't adding up and I believe it is the location of the wind sensor, just above the radome, and smack in the sail plan's back wind when the AWA is forward of abeam. In other words if you tried to sail with your bow on SARABAND's transom, your headsail would be luffing due to the disturbed wind.

    Having wind sensors aft and pointing aft is most desirable when running downwind. Less so for sailing nearly close hauled, which SARABAND is doing so very well. SARABAND's skipper has noted he is aware of this backwash effect on the wind sensor and its possible influence on AWA and AWS readings.

    Lastly, for those unfamiliar about Westsail ratings, for what it's worth, here is NCPHRF's current database. (The Westsail 32s are listed on pages 59 and 60)
    http://www.yra.org/PHRF/docs/current...rts_rating.pdf

    Of five boats listed on current NCPHRF, all SHTP veterans, only PATIENCE shows the "hull faired to rudder" modification. It is possible that other owners declared the modification and NCPHRF ignored them. Checking the current US Sailing PHRF handicaps manual online, NorCal PHRF rates the Westsail at 216, as they did in 2010. Five other PHRF regions, including light air regions like Long Island Sound and S.Cal, rate the Westsail at 204.

    Final tally: 4 Yay votes and 7 Nay votes, the Nays indicating they believe the Apparent Windspeed was different, likely stronger, than the readout.
    Last edited by sleddog; 10-25-2021 at 08:43 PM.

  10. #4550
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    277

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    Checking the current US Sailing PHRF handicaps manual online, NorCal PHRF rates the Westsail at 216, as they did in 2010. Five other PHRF regions, including light air regions like Long Island Sound and S.Cal, rate the Westsail at 204.
    I stand corrected, although I don't understand why S.Cal shows 2 different ratings for the W32 with the same configuration....204 vs 224 all boats without spinnakers, and all with close to the same rated sail area, assuming they all have feathering/folding props which the report doesn't show.
    In another low wind area (Pac NW) the W32 rates 242. In the Chesapeake its 246. Go figure!

    Thanks for the fun dialogue.

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