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Thread: sss hmb and ncorc rules

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    Default HMB Requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Gutoff View Post
    I guess I'm not really getting the answer I'm looking for so my question must be wrong. Does the board believe the HMB is in the same category of ocean race (in terms of risk factor) as the Farallones? What if the only ocean race you plan to do is the HMB? I'd rank the races progressively. HMB basic CG requirements, Farallones NCORC, Longpac and Transpac as is. (or what the Race Chairs deem appropriate)
    Jonathan, Unless you take an abrupt "Left Turn" at Seal Rocks, you will sail pretty close to where "Daisy's" hull lies (it's fiberglass). If you continue on to HMB you'll sail over the locations where several boats have been lost on the "South Bar" over the years. I think a jaunt down to HMB is in the same category as any other Gulf of the Farallones Race. (disclaimer: I'm not on the SSS Board and am no longer on the YRA Board).

    I know yacht club cruises go down to HMB with the minimum CG requirements with boats and skippers much less experienced; I think it's just a matter of time. I also know a couple was lost two years ago near Seal Rocks just "cruising." Their Ranger 33 sat in KKMI's Sausalito yard for months afterward as a grim reminder until it was cut up and hauled it away. Over the years several boats have grounded in Ocean Beach for various reasons, sometimes resulting in loss of life.

    Pat Broderick

  2. #22
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    Sep 2007
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    Default

    The other board members can certainly speak for themselves but as incoming race chair, if you made me answer today I would tell you the new NorCalORC requirements are minimum equipment requirements for ocean races out of San Francisco Bay.

    Does this board member "believe the HMB race is in the same category of ocean race (in terms of risk factor) as the Farallones?" Not most years. However the 2011 HMB race was a fairly heavy air upwind race until shortly before the Colorado Reef buoy, while the 2012 SH Farallones Race was mostly a drifter.

    The board will discuss it when we reconvene after the 3BF.
    Last edited by BobJ; 01-21-2013 at 06:41 PM.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
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    4

    Default

    One of my concerns is about the requirement for a 33lb floatation PFD. I know alot of people like the inflatables but I prefer to not trust them or have them go off on the boat when they get caught on something. The other thing is if in the water if you were to bounce off something, like a rock they can pop and then you have nothing. What are others thoughts on this part?
    Scott

  4. #24
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    Sep 2007
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    Default

    I tend to agree with you Scott. The guy who fell overboard Saturday said he would have had trouble had he been wearing an inflatable. I can't be 100% sure my Mustang vest will inflate if I need it. I assume it will, but I don't KNOW. Plus you get some padding and insulation from a regular vest.

    The challenge is where to draw the line on the vest type PFD's. The guy Saturday fell in the water because he got hit by the boom. Had it knocked him out, having a PFD that would turn him upright might have been critical, but the Type III vests we often wear won't do that. The waist-belt PFD's are clearly insufficient.

    Perhaps read the Low Speed Chase report again (which is what's driving this) - inadequate PFD's were a factor in at least a couple of those fatalities.

  5. #25
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    Sep 2007
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    Default

    USCG Type 1 life jackets will also meet the NCORC rule, and I own several of the Stearns Merchant Mate life vests, and while bulky, they are comfortable to wear. I have them specifically for heading for the life raft, should that prove necessary. They are also warm and the padding is good for climbing the mast.

    http://www.stearnsflotation.com/Delu...t-P1573C8.aspx

    There's no absolute requirement that you have an inflatable built into NCORC. There is a recognition that the typical Type II lifejacket is insufficient to keep you going in offshore waves.

    - rob/beetle

  6. #26
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    Jan 2008
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    Santa Rosa
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    We sailed by Rich soon after he was in the water. We offered our horseshoe, but he waved us off and said "Ay Caliente" was coming back for him. Here's what we observed. He was wearing a dinghy-type life vest that was up around his neck. After we passed by and looked back all we could see was the vest sticking up in the choppy water. He was treading water and waving boats off that were approaching him. He was floating about neck-deep in choppy water created by the many boats in the area and getting splashed in the face. He was only in the water for a few minutes before "Ay Caliente" got back to him (they should bet the USSA Hansen Lifesaving Award for what they did!)
    I took the Safety at Sea Seminar at the Maritime Academy as preparation for the 2010 PacCup. I observed two demonstrations that stick solidly with me to this day. 1) A 12 gauge meteor flare in 20 knots of wind half a mile away might as well be pissing on a forest fire. 2) During the PFD demonstration in the Academy's indoor pool, volunteers in dinghy-type vests were having difficulty keeping their chins out of the water after just a few minutes. And they were fighting vests up around their necks. Those in high-floatation inflatables with thigh straps had no problems, especially a "large" bodied mad in a Spinlock vest with his hood pulled over his face.
    We were told, and I believe it, that many overboard drownings occur when a person in a life jacket tires and can't keep his/her face out of the water or away from the wind - which causes the wave action to splash into the face. I know an inflated vest is awkward, but the point, especially at sea, isn't to swim; it's to keep alive long enough for rescue. That's why, as I've said before, I hook the PLB and submersible VHF onto me - so I can call for that rescue and hope it gets to me in time.
    I came home from Vallejo,and that day ordered a Spinlock vest from Defender Industries. Thigh straps (somewhat awkward, but will keep the vest in its proper relationship to my body). Hood to pull over my head (with clear plastic face) to keep waves from splashing into my face. EU floatation approval (I know it's not USCG "approved" - I carry USCG Type 1 bulky vests to meet the requirement) Automatic inflation (plus pull cord and oral inflation tube) Good shot at turning my unconscious body face up. Very expensive!

  7. #27
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    Jan 2013
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    Berkeley Marina
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    Default

    Still buzzing from the TBF (so far it looks like I wasn't dead last!) and looking forward to trying an SSS ocean event (thinking particularly of HMB for my first), I started reviewing the NCORC requirements to determine what my very average, very old Santana 22 would need to be compliant. The only head start I have is a pulpit and stanchions.
    For the bored & curious, my virtual-back-of-napkin ballpark numbers are here:
    google doc spreadsheet of NCORC projects specific to Lanikai

    To help decide whether I should invest $1800 in boat projects and possibly the same amount in safety gear for this little boat with a resale value of half that amount, or postpone my ocean racing career while I put that money toward a better prepared boat, I have a couple questions:

    What is an "integral, essentially watertight unit" (G)? I suspect most participating boats have cowl vents, lazarette vents, hatchboard vents, chain pipes, etc. which can allow some considerable green water ingress in foul conditions. Would a couple of unsealed cowl vents and a leaky companionway be considered unacceptable for something like a fair weather HMB race?

    For a singlehander, I wonder about the lifesling and MOB requirements. Kinda hard to toss a MOB pole to myself and work the lifesling from the water, no? Or is the idea that I should be equipped to assist a nearby sailor in distress (in which case, fair enough)?

    Finally, for the older salts familiar with the Santana 22 (I'm looking at you, Mr. Broderick!), my biggest hurdle project-wise would be reconstructing the cockpit drain assemblies to incorporate proper seacocks where none currently exist. It's maybe a straight foot from the underside of the cockpit to the hull, and the integral glass nipples at both ends are still rock solid after 45 years. Would I still need to proceed with this alteration?

    I can abide all the requirements in spirit and most of them in specifics. Certainly my boat, or any boat, would do well to have many of these safety measures in place even for simple leisure sailing on the bay. Formulating a specific plan to get from my present state of unseaworthiness to a future HMB or Farallones race is, while financially sobering, helpful in deciding realistically if and when I will be out there chasing the rest of you.

  8. #28
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    Laniki, I wrote an extensive reply to your post, but the damned SSS system kicked me off and it was lost. I hate this system. I don't have time to go back and reconstruct it right now, but I'll get back later. In the meantime, let's plan to sit down at/after the SSS Awards Meeting and talk about what you've asked/said. Thanks, Pat

  9. #29
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    Sep 2007
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    Pat, for the life of me I don't understand why this board "times out" logged-on members. Perhaps Matt can tweak those settings (probably not) but in the meantime, here's the trick I use. If I've gotten long-winded typing a reply, before I click to post it, I drag across the whole thing with the mouse, then right-click and click "Copy". Then I try to post it. If it says I have to Log In again, I cuss a bit and do it, then hit Reply to Thread again, right click in the window and click "Paste".

    In other words, copy your reply to the "Clipboard" before you lose the whole thing when trying to post it.

  10. #30
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    Jan 2013
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    Berkeley Marina
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    Thanks, Pat, I'll look for you at the awards meeting.
    I kept getting timed out as I wrote my post as well, but internalized BobJ's trick eons ago after watching too many of my treatises evaporate into the ether (probably for the better in most cases). If I start getting wordy, I usually just move to a text editor until I'm ready to post. But this forum does seem unusually quick on the timeouts.

    Adam

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